AI and the Hiring Game, Part 2

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Leandro Cartelli: Candidates are using AI to apply and apply at scale. And so we're seeing a huge increase in the volume of applications coming in. And it's just not possible for recruiters to take care of that. Of course, recruiters and businesses are using AI to filter through that. And that's where candidates are not going to get a human being to actually look at those applications and come back to them. 

Jill Finlayson: Welcome to the Future of Work podcast with Berkeley Extension and EDGE in Tech at the University of California, focused on expanding diversity and gender equity in tech. EDGE in Tech is part of the Innovation Hub at CITRIS, the Center for IT Research in the Interest of Society and the Banatao Institute. UC Berkeley Extension is the continuing education arm of the University of California at Berkeley. 

We're continuing our conversation about recruiting and how tech is changing the recruiter role, tools, and processes, as well as the candidate experience. Please welcome back Leandro Cartelli, founder of a staffing and recruiting agency specializing in connecting US businesses with top Latin American talent. For nearly 20 years, he has been in recruiting and talent acquisition across global corporations and high growth startups. He brings a unique perspective on building high impact, data driven talent strategies. He believes that people, their experiences, are the true drivers of business success, helping companies scale smarter and faster with the right team. 

Last time, we learned about a lot of changes that have been occurring in the recruiter role. And now we're layering this AI technology on top. So tell me, Leandro, if AI has made hiring so much faster and made applying faster, has it actually made the process better? 

Leandro Cartelli: So yes and no. I believe that we're undergoing, and this is going to be maybe obvious for anyone listening, and it's happening in every industry, we're undergoing a transition where we're just figuring things out. In many senses, in many ways, it has optimized the way recruiting operates. So now, we have tools that go out there and hunt automatically. With AI, they just go and look for people that are fit for the role. We have tools that will screen the applications and review their CV. There's even voice-based screening agents that call candidates and just ask a few questions, auto-scheduling of interviews. 

So in many ways, it has improved and it has optimized the way we operate. But in many others-- there's two things that I believe are happening here. One, we're not designing processes and the way we integrate AI or strategic. Many organizations are just getting one or the other and is just putting them into the process and not thinking about how they complement each other, how they add value to the process and what are the things they need to change or what are the things that need to remain the same. 
So on the one side, we're just not giving really deep thought about how to integrate AI in the best way. And so we're just putting tools in there. And that can create a lot of challenges. And I think that's part one. And then part two is the expectation of immediate impact of results. The fact that you plug in an AI tool or agent today doesn't mean that recruiters can manage double the requisitions tomorrow. 

And so we need to go through that transition. We need to work on change management. We need to work on training. We need to be smart about it. And that doesn't happen because yes, of course, well, I plugged in AI, I expect to reduce headcount costs. This optimizing server should be able to manage 100 rigs at the same time because well, the AI is hunting, it's got all the interviews, what's going on? And it's not as easy. 

We're still figuring out, what does that balance look like? How does human and technology really work together in a process that's deeply human? I have no idea what's going to happen. But I do believe we'll still need human beings as part of this process. And when you think about the candidate experience, people expect to have a person going out along the ride with them. 

I think on the one side, I said, I think it's optimizing. It's really helping. There's a lot of cool things happening in many ways. You could argue it is improving. But then on the other side, there is many times not the depth of design and strategy that that leads going to, how do we do it? We're definitely not seeing that the introduction of this technology is getting the right change management. And we're not giving it enough time to really be integrated in the right way. 

And so recruiters are left to manage a ton of requisitions and positions pressure, like we said before, from business leaders and from candidates with a bunch of tools that they might not even how to use, or if they do, they still need to figure things out in a big way. And they just get drowned. So it is hard. And that's why we also see so much pain from everyone in the ecosystem, candidates, recruiters, and business leaders as well. 

Jill Finlayson: I think that's an interesting observation, that we can automate the process so that things go more quickly, but there's still a point at which the people have to take over. And they become the bottleneck, not because of inability, but because they're managing so many wrecks. And each of those people still needs that human contact. 

Leandro Cartelli: Yeah, absolutely. And if you think about it, recruiters today are not responding to every person. It's impossible right now. So there's definitely a lot of things to improve. If we had recruiters that were able to respond to every single applicant, come back with feedback in 30 minutes, if we had all of that, then yes, I mean, no complaints. We're the best. We don't need AI. Now, that doesn't happen. So AI is definitely improving things in a lot of ways. 

But then again, there's a lot of ways in which it's not. And so the recruiters are right in the middle of that. And the expectation of value and delivery of results is super high because well, investments are definitely high when it comes to AI and the technology for recruiting. And in many ways, we continue to do recruiting the same way, only just putting AI tools behind how we do it. 

And maybe we need to ask ourselves, should recruiting continue to be the same, or should we change completely? And do we still need CVs, or should we do something else? But these are questions we need to be asking ourselves. 

Jill Finlayson: I like that question of, is this the right time to reinvent hiring? I want to dive into one of the AI tools, and that's the ones that are screening resumes and surfacing the top candidates. Can you say a little bit about what it is looking for in terms of education, certificates, badging, credentials, micro-credentials? Are those things considered or weighted as part of the evaluation? 

Leandro Cartelli: They are, but it also depends-- so the good thing about this technology, it's not a black box. I have seen a few that are black box. So basically, you put in some description, and it doesn't tell you what it's doing inside. And then it's going to recommend people. I would argue that's not good. And we need to what's happening inside and how it's thinking about assessing if a candidate is a good fit or not. 

But for the most part, the technology I've seen, there is the ability for a person to actually adjust and manage what's being considered. And so the way they work is you put in a short description, the AI is going to outline what they see there, and what are the skills, experiences, degrees based on the description that it believes we should consider and look for in a candidate and how they're weighted. And then in general, you get that outline. And recruiters or business leaders get their fingers in that and just touch it. 

So basically, well, the AI is putting the bachelor's degree on top of their experience and you can change that. Well, I think experience is more important than a degree. And so you adjust that manually, define the weighting of each of those variables. The technologies, well, if you think about a developer, how many years do you need with any specific technology and which is more important? And so the AI is going to outline that based on the job description. And then we're going to go in and say, hey, this is not as important. 

And maybe location doesn't matter. And I said, hey, location matters. And it's up there. If the person is staying, I don't know, in New York, they're not going to be considered. Well, you just remove that from the variables that it assesses. And so it's not a one size fits all. It's really around what the description looks like in the output and then if the business is going in there and adjusting. 

My recommendation is always from the candidate-- because this is from the recruiter and the business side. On the candidate side, there is a lot of AI usage as well. And many times it ends up being, well, the AI talking to the AI and which AI beats which. And so I do believe there is a lot of value in using AI for job hunting and applying for roles in the right way. And I invite anyone to try it out. 

You upload your CV to ChatGPT and you say, hey, I'm going to apply to this job. Can you adjust it and correct it to ensure that it's a better fit? And many times, it's going to hallucinate and put things in there that are not true. And so you need to make sure that you're using it the right way. Make sure that when you read the description, the AI is typically going to for applications that are the right fit for basically what you see outlined there. 

And then many times, it looks for actual value delivered. So I always say don't let your CV be another job description. Just put what you've done, very short, and then just putting metrics and data points and projects, things you've done that align to what the company is looking for. 

And then the AI is going to look at that and say, hey, this person, yeah, they have three years of experience as a sales development representative. And they've improved our client retention by 20% and they've upselled by 120. So that's great. They have evidence in their CV that they've actually done this, and they're going to prioritize it. But being very, very careful with that because again, we've seen it on both sides. And it can be tricky. 

Jill Finlayson: So before we flip to the candidate experience, I want to ask if there is one AI tool that you would like to design that would really help recruiters? 

Leandro Cartelli: So that's a great question. I think that there's a lot of great technology that's helping recruiters today. There's a couple of things like this going around. So I don't know if this is super novel or anything, but many times we were talking before about our recruiter experience and we're talking about the challenges with getting business leaders to provide feedback and support them, I would try to design a companion that can address the relationship between recruiter and hiring manager. 

So basically, if you can define guidelines for the AI companion, relationship is going to push the business non-stop. And that's by design. It's not the recruiter. So we're going to protect recruiters from having to do that. But we're going to get business leaders to actually do what they have to do as part of their role in the hiring process. 

I would build something like that. I would try to protect them as much as possible in that sense, because it's something that they struggle a lot with. And they tend to be very exposed and very vulnerable to our senior leaders that are not providing feedback. So I would design something like that. 

Jill Finlayson: It reminds me there's a lot of AI systems for transcribing doctor-patient relationships and documenting that conversation in the chart. It's confidential. And it almost feels like if the recruiter could hear the evaluation that the business manager is actually saying and doing, that would provide them with better input into what the manager's really seeking. 

Leandro Cartelli: And there is a few tools that are doing that. So I might have to charge them for advertising right now. But there is a tool that's called Meta View. And it's so cool. It's showing the conversation. It takes notes like any note taker. But then based on what you're looking for and what you've asked it to assess, it's going to provide the output of that. And that can join also the conversations with the business and basically everyone throughout the process and start putting all that together. So it accelerates. 

But that's where I think it's hard because it ends up the AI doing the human part. And I do believe that there's tremendous value to that. I think it saves everyone time. You don't have to take the notes. But we still need that human impression, that feedback, that perspective. And so what I fear sometimes is the human part of this process being left aside. I hope it doesn't. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, let's talk about that candidate who's on the other side of this. In my experience, and in talking with a lot of people, the job seeking process has become easier to apply, but much more frustrating. They're seeing things like, am I applying for a real job? Or is this a third party intermediary? Is it a ghost job? Am I being ghosted? Has my resume gone into a black hole? Do I just have to apply 200 times because it's a numbers game? Tell me why the candidate experience is so rough right now? 

Leandro Cartelli: Yes. And it's sad, but everything you just described happens. And I believe that it connects directly to what we were talking about before. So on the one side, you have recruiters being pressured. They have to move fast. They need to fill roles. [INAUDIBLE] So they have to, unfortunately, many times make some trade offs in terms of what they prioritize. And many times, unfortunately, candidates are put second in that equation. 

On the other side, it's just many times in human. You have a recruiter that has hundreds of applications. And how can they actually go through all of that? It's not going to be possible, and even more so now because we're talking about AI. 

We look at those applications and come back to them. They're first going to be filtered, like we were talking about, by an AI. Maybe the top 10, 20, get reviewed by a recruiter, and they move on to the next stage. So I think on the one side is really recruiting the sheer volume of applications and processes and what recruiters have is so huge that they just don't have the time. And like we said before, they're being asked to do a lot more with, I don't want to say less, but with technology that's just not integrated necessarily in the right way. 

I think part two is many times the ghost jobs, I think that's a perfect example, many times businesses are taking action that is not when it comes to talent attraction that is not immediate, but they're not communicating it appropriately to the market. Many times, businesses post jobs and that relates to just building pipeline for a future need. 

And they don't say that. They just post the job, like we're looking for a people leader for recruiters. And recruiters apply thinking, well, there's an opportunity here. And the opportunity might not be there today. They're just looking to build the pipeline for future needs. And this is something very common. Because then again, businesses, when they do need to hire someone, they need to move fast. And if they already build that pipeline, they can reach out to people that are interested. And so that accelerates the process. 

Many times, this is just not communicated. And so the expectation-- I always say the key to a good candidate experience is setting the right expectations. And so if you just tell them in advance, you're not going to be necessarily waiting for a response, they know that they're applying for future needs. So I think that's a big one. 

Then I would also say it goes-- and by the way, this is something that candidates need to take into consideration. It goes many times to the culture of the company and the business. If, in terms of your culture, you prioritize speed and result only and not respect and transparency and relationship building, and many companies do, and that's fine, then you're going to see candidates not getting responses or feedback. 

By the way, maybe it was for the best that you didn't receive feedback on that opportunity because that's what you're going to find when you get inside. But organizations many times prioritize basic metrics. You were talking before about time to hire and cost per hire. And so that's prioritized as part of the process. And recruiters are asked to do so much. 

Technology ideally solving a lot of that. And we were talking about, well, is AI improving talent acquisition? If you design it and implement it appropriately in a way that the candidate receives a follow up message if there is no movement or if they get more detailed feedback, then definitely improving the process. But many organizations don't have the budget for that. 

And I think the other consideration is it's cyclical. There's times when you find a candidate market, and there's other times when you have an employer market. And so when you have a candidate market, then businesses go above and beyond, making sure that there is a good experience for candidates because they want to hire them. 

When the tables turn, they're getting so many candidates, so many applications, hiring is produced. And unfortunately, that comes across and turns into, well, this is not as important for us right now. And we were talking about that before. And again, it's about culture. You have a business that values people, they're going to take care of this every single time, every single cycle, whether they're hiring a lot or not. If they don't, then when they have slow cycles, then they're not going to pay a lot of attention. 

So it is hard. There's a lot of components to this. I hope that with technology, we're going to see some improvement. The ghosting thing for candidates, it's not-- by the way, recruiters also get ghosted. They're having to be with the candidate. They want to move them forward in the process. They never hear back. Or they get a response, an initial response. They want to schedule the interview. They never hear back. 

Jill Finlayson: If you could design, maybe not the perfect candidate journey, but a better candidate journey, what do you think would be the key elements of that? 

Leandro Cartelli: Expectation setting from moment one and at every single stage. So I think that's always the key to a positive experience. We don't have this many times. So it would be a journey where communication is fluid, it's transparent, it's frequent, and expectations are clear. That would be number one. 

Number two, I would ensure, and there's a couple of tools that are coming out for this, that they-- as they progress through the process, they're getting a lot of information. And you can, for example, after the first interview, share a bit about the team they're planning to join, and then after the second interview, a bit about the culture of the company. Give them small spills as they progress so they can get closer to the company, to the team, to the culture. 

I would ensure that happens throughout. And I would design it in a way where there's always a human being on the other side, and they have access to that person. I would, on the other side, make sure that I give businesses the right structure to manage that. But a human, a person on the other side, they can always access to. 

And then I would try to make it more dynamic. I believe that, we mentioned it before, recruiting continues to be the same since, I don't know, forever. And so I would not only have interviews, just your standard interviews, but I would make it more dynamic in the sense of I would incorporate the gamification components. I would include experiences. I would give them the opportunity to meet the team. 

So as an example, and I don't recall the name of the program they have out, what it's called, but I believe Salesforce has this thing where after I believe the third interview, you get access to a program where you can reach out to any one person that subscribed, which is a lot of people, that work at Salesforce and connect with them and just have a conversation and get to them and ask them whatever you want. And I love that because it continues to create that human connection. So I would definitely do that. 

The last thing is I think speed for candidates, and not only for business, for people, for candidates, it's a huge differentiator. So if you're able to make sure that candidates are moving fast through the process of getting that feedback fast, then it's just two or three days, you're moving forward. This is why not, and this is the person you're going to meet. Those are the things that I would do. 

I think many times one of the things that could easily be solved for, and actually, every time I build a process is one of the things I did very, very quickly, we were talking about the volume of applications. Recruiters cannot deal with hundreds of applications. It's just not possible. So you can set up the system in a way that when you're receiving applications, at some point, you just hold them. 

It's like, we got 50 applications at this point, just close it down. Do not accept any more applications. And redirect individuals to say, well, come to our CRM. Come to our talent pool. We'll save your profile for later if we have other opportunities. But I would try to do that as well so that you avoid, on the one side, the overload from recruiters, but then on the other side, candidates, we were talking about before, applying, creating expectations about an opportunity. 

So those are a few things I would do. But to me, it's about transparency, expectation, balance between technology and human connection and making sure that human connection is there. And yes, if you can move it fast, then do it. 

Jill Finlayson: With your expertise globally, certainly understanding the Latin American market, is there anything that we could take away from regional knowledge that could be applied here, a culture fit? 

Leandro Cartelli: Yeah. So I would say there's cultures and subcultures. So I'm always conscious when we talk about cultural fit and people working from different countries. The way we could describe a culture is not necessarily applied to every single person. And so we hear a lot that people in the US are very direct in the way they communicate, but maybe not everyone. 

In Argentina or Latin America we like to have some small talk and connect personally with an individual and then move to business. But there's people that just don't care about that. They just want to get to business and to work. And so my recommendation is always very openly talk about culture. I believe the best way to connect individuals in the right way and help them build better relationships is simply asking how they like to work, how they like to collaborate. 

I believe this should, first, it should be part of every recruiting process. From a hiring side and from a collaboration perspective, how do we like to work as a business? What is our style? What do we expect? We'll be asking you A, B, C, and this is how we're going to do it. And then from the other side how you like to work and what do you value and appreciate? And then how those things connect with each other. And it's OK if a company or a person is not the right fit to work together. That happens. And it's good to know it sooner rather than later, during the recruiting process, ideally. 

Now, if you are working together, ask the question. Outline it. If you're very different in your style, just find the middle ground and define the expectations on both sides. How do you like to work? How do you like to collaborate? What's the best style of communication for you? And how do you like to be recognized? And do you like to talk about things openly? Or maybe you like to have one-on-ones. Do you like to talk more often or less? Do you like async work? Or do you prefer more synchronous? 

Ask all of those questions. Start the conversation. And if there's any gaps or any differences, just make sure you explain how you like to work. Because many times, it's not even a case of things being different. It's just the fact that you don't know it. You just assume something. And the person might be an extrovert or an introvert. They might be very direct. And they're not disrespecting you. It's just their culture, the way they communicate. But if you don't know that, you might take it personally. 

Many times, it's just the fact that we don't know. And so there's no need to change how you collaborate or how you like to work or how you like to show up. But it's really a question of knowing why the other person is acting and communicating and showing up in the way they do. And I think that makes a whole difference. 

Jill Finlayson: This is just great advice, full stop. So thank you for that insight and emphasizing that culture is really a two way street. It's not just, do I fit in this culture? But it's also, do I want to be in that culture? 

Leandro Cartelli: Absolutely. And I think businesses and leaders need to communicate the culture. Many times they don't. They don't talk about their company and their team culture. And then talent and candidates that are considered an opportunity, they need to make decisions based on that. Don't let it pass. It's not like, well, it doesn't sound like me, but still, I mean, this is so good. 

After six months, it's not going to be a shiny thing anymore. You're going to be exhausted. You're going to hate it. And you're going to want to leave. And so use that information. I always say, A, it's a clear sign of a company's culture if they don't talk about culture during the interview process. And then B, on your side, it might happen, but then on the candidate side, the one question I tell every single person that's considering a new job, they always ask about is culture. 

Tell me about the culture, how you manage differences, how you communicate. Tell me about that. And then use that information to make your decision. It's definitely not a one way street, like we said. And don't make decisions that you're going to regret. Even if it seems great right now, you're going to be sorry later. 

Jill Finlayson: Kind of a full circle moment here, the ROI of a bad hire, there's also the ROI of taking a bad job if it's not a good fit for you. 

Leandro Cartelli: 100%. And it's going to be a lot more painful, I'll tell you that. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, this has been super helpful. And I wanted to give you a chance to leave us with any final advice you have for applicants who are navigating this AI shaped world of work. 

Leandro Cartelli: Well, I would say-- actually, it's funny. I post a lot on LinkedIn. And I talk a lot about remote work and culture. And I actually posted something today that I'm going to repeat now, which is, as you're looking for a new job, as you're navigating the market, make sure that you build relationships, expand your network, and do so by giving value away. The best way to build a relationship is giving away. 

And don't expect something to come back. Just give and give and give. Things come back in their own natural way, maybe ways that you don't expect. And build a network, create connections, do projects. Do whatever you can to just expand your relationships. I think if you tell me what's the one thing someone needs to find a job today, it's having the right network, connecting with the right people. 

You might apply for something and get it. But we talked about it. I mean, there's going to be hundreds of applications on top of yours. And you might be the perfect candidate. But if your application is application 124, no one is going to know it. I mean, when you're interested in a job or an opportunity, send a message to the recruiter. Send a message to the hiring manager. Send a message to the CEO. Reach out. Build the networks. Build the relationships. And I think that's the best way to really find good opportunities, even to decide if it might not be the opportunity you thought it was. 

Jill Finlayson: What's the best way to build a relationship with the recruiter before we say goodbye? 

Leandro Cartelli: With the recruiter, well, I think it goes to giving value. So many times, you might reach out for a role that might be the fit for you or not, but many times, recruiters are looking for other talent as well. Refer someone. Recommend a person. Make recruiters lives easier. 

I always love when I reach out to someone, they might be interested today or not, but I love when they tell me, this is not for me, but I know someone. Let me show you their portfolio. I think it goes back to the best value you can give to recruiters, helping them find the right talent. So definitely do that. 

Recruiters now, more than ever, by the way, are active on LinkedIn. So use that opportunity to share insights. When you see they're posting something, share their post, comment. Start building that way. That's the approach. But I would say recommend people, refer, or try to get people opportunities. I'm a big believer in karma. I like to put things out to the world and give and give. And something always comes back. And that's been at least my experience. 

Jill Finlayson: I absolutely love that. And it's a great note to end on, which is help other people get jobs. Be generous. Thank you so much, Leandro. 

Leandro Cartelli: Thank you for your time. 

Jill Finlayson: And with that, I hope you have enjoyed this latest in a long series of podcasts that we'll be sending your way every month. Please share with friends and colleagues who may be interested in taking this Future of Work journey with us. And make sure to check out extension.berkeley.edu to find a variety of courses and certificates to help you thrive in this new working landscape. And to see what's coming up next at EDGE in Tech, go ahead and visit edge.berkeley.edu. Thanks so much for listening. And I'll be back next month to continue the Future of Work journey. The Future of Work podcast is hosted by Jill Finlayson, produced by Sarah Benzuly, and edited by Matt DiPietro.

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