Embracing Neurodiversity

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Khushboo Chabria: This is about how can we create better work environments, where people can bring their best selves to the workplace, where people can feel understood for their differences and accepted for who they are, so that all of us can have better outcomes in the work that we produce and in how well we do as an organization. Organizations need to recognize that including neurodiversity in the workplace is not so much of like, oh, we need to prepare for the neurodivergent people that are entering the workforce. It's about recognizing that neurodivergent people are already there. 

Jill Finlayson: Welcome to the Future of Work podcast with Berkeley Extension and EDGE in Tech at the University of California, focused on expanding diversity and gender equity in tech. EDGE in Tech is part of the Innovation Hub at Citrus, the Center for IT Research in the Interest of Society and the Banatao Institute. UC Berkeley Extension is the continuing education arm for the University of California at Berkeley. 

In this episode, we're diving into a topic that's reshaping modern workplaces and unlocking incredible potential-- neurodiversity. From creating inclusive environments to tapping into the unique strengths of the neurodivergent individuals bring to the table, we'll explore how organizations can evolve beyond traditional approaches and thrive in a world that celebrates and leverages difference. To talk about this important topic, we're delighted to welcome Khushboo Chabria. 

Khushboo is a neurodiversity specialist and a transformational leader. She is on a mission to advocate for access to high-quality services to inspire and improve the intentional inclusion of neuro-distinct individuals in society. Khushboo is a program manager, career coach, and speaker with the Neurodiversity Pathways program of the Goodwill of Silicon Valley. She also sits on the board of Peaces of Me Foundation. Welcome, Khushboo. 

Khushboo Chabria: Thank you so much for having me, Jill. I'm super excited to talk about this topic with you. 

Jill Finlayson: Likewise. And I always feel like normal is really part of a spectrum. So can you start out by talking about what neurodiversity is and why is it important in the context of the workplace? 

Khushboo Chabria: Absolutely. I mean, neurodiversity is simply variation in brain function and behavior. We're all part of neurodiversity. We all have different ways that our brains work. I mean, if we look across any room, we see people with different hair colors, skin color, eye color, different heights, weight. And we don't assume that that difference is abnormal. We accept all those differences as absolutely normal. 

And therefore, I think that when we think about neurodiversity, it's really ridiculous to assume that our brains are going to be exactly the same from one another. And we know that's not true. The way we process information, the way we communicate, the way we make sense of things, I mean, that's very different person to person. And that's all neurodiversity is. 

But one main principle that we call a principle of neuro-inclusion is that neurodiversity is normal. Neurodiversity has always existed throughout history, throughout time. And neurodiversity is always going to exist. And that's the part of the diversity of humanity, I think. 

Jill Finlayson: Since it is part of normal and kind of expanding, if you will, the definition of normal to be reflective of these different approaches and personalities. So if it's normal, why are we running into problems of bias or discrimination in the workplace? 

Khushboo Chabria: It's a really complicated question to ask. There's multiple factors there. I think that there's this whole idea of an office culture and hiring people based on cultural fit. And if we really look at what that is, it's around sameness. It's around being in rooms where everyone has basically always been there and feeling like that's what it should be. When really, we need more diversity, we need more diverse perspectives in the workplace. 

Because if we're going to solve the kinds of complex problems we're facing today in society, we're going to need people with different perspectives at the table. I believe that one of the main reasons we are where we are as a species, and because of how much innovation we've had, is due to the fact that there's neurodiversity, that there are neurodivergent minds and people who think outside the box and have novel ways to solve problems, because that's really needed. I think that's something that will move us forward as a society. 

Jill Finlayson: Say a little bit more about how neurodivergent folks maybe think differently or process information differently. 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah. I mean, every neurodivergent person is very unique. So I want to actually put that as a disclaimer. Because when you meet one neurodivergent person, you've only met that one person. And their strengths and differences are absolutely unique to them. This is why services and supports need to be more individualized. And we can't really put like a standardization in how neurodivergent people should be supported. 

Briefly speaking, there's a lot of differences in how neurodivergent people communicate. They might have differences in how they socially interact with people, how they make meaning of things, so their cognitive abilities might be a little bit different. Also, there's this thing about sensory sensitivities. A lot of neurodivergent people, autistic people mostly, but also people with ADHD and dyslexia sense the world differently. And that can affect any of their five senses, whether that's touch, that's hearing, that's sight, that's smell, all of that. 

And so those differences need to be regulated in a neurodivergent person. And therefore, they might engage in stimming, which is engaging in repetitive behavior. And we used to think that was only common for neurodivergent people. But it turns out all of us stim. So if you are in a meeting and you check your phone or you find yourself doodling or playing with your hair, that's you stimming. 

But neurodivergent people might just do that a lot more than the neurotypical people, who maybe don't need to regulate their body that much because they don't have an overload of sensations from the world around them. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah. So put me in the mind of a person who is neurodivergent. And to your point, there are different aspects of this ADHD, autism, dyslexia, a lot of different categories. But how might they experience a group meeting differently than a neurotypical person? 

Khushboo Chabria: There might be a lot of different things going on. So one thing is, a neurodivergent person might struggle with small talk. So if that meeting kind of begins with small talk, that might be something that maybe the neurodivergent person might not be able to engage in, because that actually does not feel natural to neurodivergent people. Neurodivergent people are very straight to the point, and they kind of want to get to work, get to the task. 

And so having small talk around certain topics like the weather or what we did over the weekend or the holidays might be uncomfortable for the neurodivergent person, or they might not respond to it in the way that you expect. But that doesn't mean they're not qualified for their positions. So we kind of need to differentiate those things. 

Maybe you have a neurodivergent person on your team who doesn't really understand sarcasm. And if someone in the meeting is making jokes or kind of saying things that aren't really direct, that might not be clear to the neurodivergent person. Neurodivergent people really need clear and direct instructions on what it is that they need to do. And they need to have clear directives of who's responsible for what to really have the context under which they're working. 

Jill Finlayson: It feels like clear direction is something that everyone would benefit from. 

Khushboo Chabria: Absolutely. And that's one of the things, Jill. When we do these trainings with organizations on really understanding how to support neurodiversity in the workplace, very often, someone will raise their hand and say, but this isn't specific to neurodivergent people. And we'll say, exactly. Because the kinds of things that we're talking about actually improve psychological safety for everyone. 

Another example for the meeting, Jill, is a lot of neurodivergent people don't know when to interject in a conversation. This is something that I struggle with as well in my own group settings. And I happen to have a manager who accommodates me by actually asking me to share my perspectives when I've been quiet for some time. 

A great analogy for this. My colleague John says that it's kind of like those crisscross when you're doing the jump ropes with two jump ropes, and you kind of have to jump in and know when you can jump in. It's kind of like that for someone who's neurodivergent. They might not know when to interject. They might feel judged or feel scared that they're going to be judged for what they're saying. Or maybe by the time that they actually get a chance to speak, the topic of the meeting has changed. 

These are the kinds of things we're talking about communication wise. But then again, we also see managers in the workplace now who might put on a performance evaluation that someone's not participating in meetings enough. So you can see how something so simple as this can end up becoming a performance issue for an employee, or something that a manager might ding them for, when really, it's just a difference in how their brain works or a difference in how they socially interact. 

But one thing about interjecting in conversations, that's not just something that neurodivergent people struggle with. That's also something that women struggle with when they are the only woman in the meeting. It's something that someone who is an English second language speaker is going to struggle with as well. It's also going to be something that maybe an immigrant or someone from a different culture is going to struggle with. 

And to the point I made earlier about the sarcasm or making cultural references or things like that in conversation, if someone is not from here, if someone has a different cultural background or doesn't have the same references, you can see that even in a social atmosphere in the workplace, you're technically excluding people from that conversation. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah. So new leaders and people who are leading have to be more aware of what's going on in the room. And as you said, applies to introverts, extroverts, any sort of reasons why people might not be as fluent or as comfortable in a meeting setting like that. What do people misconstrue, or what are some of the misconceptions? So if they see these behaviors, you mentioned that a boss might think, oh, they're just not very engaged. What are some of the things that people misinterpret or some misconceptions about neurodivergent? 

Khushboo Chabria: I mean, there are so many, Jill. I don't know where to start. But as someone with ADHD, for example, I can tell you people will assume I'm lazy, or that I'm not interested in the work, or that I'm not checking my emails because I didn't know that my manager wanted me to respond and say, yes, I got this. These are the kinds of simple things that may just be a difference in us understanding how emails should be received. 

But it could be perceived as me really not caring about the emails being sent to me, or caring about what my manager wants me to do, or maybe not even doing what I'm being asked to do, right? Because if I'm not responding to emails, someone might assume that I'm not even checking. We're very good at jumping to assumptions. And this is one of the other things, one of the main principles of neuroinclusion, which we also talk about in our book, is the concept of compassionate curiosity. 

And that is that when something doesn't make sense or if something's odd to you or different to you, instead of jumping to the conclusion that, wow, this person is so rude, they didn't laugh at my joke, maybe I can have compassion for the other person's history, their life experience, because I don't know what it's been like to be in their shoes, to live their life, or know what they know or don't know, and to get curious, and to ask. 

One time I asked one of my coaching clients, every now and then when I'm talking to you, I feel like you're just saying yes, yes, yes, but I don't know if I'm getting through to you. Can you explain to me what's going on? And he literally looked at me and said, you're sharing too much information and I just cannot keep up. [LAUGHS] 

And I had to say, well, an accommodation I would love to ask for is that if we get to that point, just stop me and tell me that you want to take a break or let's continue this conversation next week. And that's totally OK with me. Now, again, if you did this as a manager to someone who's in a meeting with you, you're basically allowing them to really bring their best self to the workplace and ask for what they need so that their success can be enabled and so that their strengths can shine. 

I know that if my client has the capacity to hear me and understand what I'm saying and take the feedback that I'm giving them, they're going to be better off for it. And if they can let me know when that is sort of hindered, we can have a better working relationship together because of that compassionate curiosity. And a lot of times, managers don't ask. That's what it is. 

I have been given a performance evaluation feedback about not meeting deadlines. And if my manager had really sat down and asked me what's going on, I would have explained all the other outside factors that are affecting me meeting that deadline. And I can be proactive about it. But if I still get dinged for something, where is it that we're really creating that understanding and empathy for the people that we work with? 

If we're managing them out, where is the mentoring happening? Or thinking about, wow, maybe there's something in our system that we need to look at so that we can have better workflows, we can have better meeting of deadlines. Maybe we can look at what is really something that is an outside factor that can be addressed, that isn't the responsibility of this employee, but is affecting their performance because we're looking at it in this rigid way. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah. Well, you've hinted at some ways that we can improve the management of people who bring different skills. And it would be helpful to talk about accommodations. Before we dive into what kind of accommodations companies and supervisors can provide, I think it would be worth asking, how do people who are neurodivergent feel about asking for accommodations? Because maybe they don't want people to know or they're just trying to fit in. 

So maybe before we start asking for accommodations, what's the perspective of somebody who's in these shoes? How do they feel about asking for help? 

Khushboo Chabria: It's very complicated. I'll be honest, Jill, most of my clients don't feel comfortable disclosing in their applications that they're neurodivergent. They do feel a lot of bias, even in the interview process when they have disclosed it in the past. And I'm going to be honest, a lot of people carry trauma from having disclosed and not gotten the support that they need. Because the way that we think about accommodations and the way that our system is now with IDEA, we're literally asking companies to give us what we need so we can work in the best way that's possible for us. 

And that should be a given. We actually prefer to call them success enablers instead of accommodations, because really, what you're doing is you're enabling that employee, that person, to bring their best friends to the workplace and to do their best work, and to be able to focus, and to be able to get what it is that they need to get done because they're being supported in how they work, how they think, how they process information. 

We're in the 21st century, where we have to admit none of us process information the same way. If we've done all these strides in making education more inclusive, and making medicine more inclusive, and thinking about all these other areas of society where we think about that inclusion of differences in brain and behavior function, how can we not accommodate that readily in the workplace? 

Jill Finlayson: So it's sort of a two-pronged attack here. We need to move so that people can ask for the accommodations that they need without fear and without bias. And we, also for the individual, if they don't want to disclose, we have to figure out how can they ask for the success enablers that will allow them to bring their A game? 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I tell my clients all the time is to directly tell their manager, I work best when blank. I need this to focus. I would really love to have a day where I don't have meetings. These are very simple things that all of us can do to advocate for ourselves. One of the biggest barriers in the workplace is there's a lot of things that we do in the workplace that are just things that everybody knows, but they're not written down anywhere. They're not explicitly stated anywhere. 

So if we think about supporting neurodivergent people the way we think about supporting new hires, it's very similar. It's about letting that person know, hey, in this office, on Fridays, usually by 4:00 PM, everyone's gone. So you don't have to be here till 5:00 PM. Or, hey, if you need help with this or this or this, this is the person to go to. We do that automatically when we get a new person on our team, when we hire a new person in the organization. 

But there are still other things, like during the meeting on this day, the manager expects you to give you a report, knowing that before the meeting would be so great, and to know that that's a norm or an expectation. But sometimes we have norms and expectations that we don't directly state, but we expect other people to follow. And that's kind of where the exclusion starts happening, because a neurodivergent person understands things very literally, so they kind of need to be told. 

Jill Finlayson: So what are some of the things that you have taught your clients about getting what they need, the success enablers, here's what I need to be successful. Here's what I need to be able to accomplish my work in a timely manner. But what are some of the other things that you've advised them to do in terms of ensuring that they can have the space and the things that they need to be successful? 

Khushboo Chabria: The very first thing that I have my clients do is to think specifically about what they need and for what thing that they're struggling with. So, for example, if I want to have Grammarly on my computer or something, that's a very simple one. Let's talk about a neurodivergent one. Let's say I do want to have a day where I don't have meetings. Let's say I want Fridays to be a no meeting day. 

And I think one of the things that organizations do that's really unfortunate is that we make asking for accommodations this really tedious and complicated multi-step process, which in itself is so disempowering for a neurodivergent person already. Because an organization gets to say whether they will allow or not allow that accommodation to be offered to the neurodivergent person. And when you look at that, already, there's kind of like a power dynamic there. 

Let's say that the person does absolutely need something and they have or have not disclosed. If they haven't disclosed, I would ask if that accommodation is something that they can ask for without disclosing first. Because you can easily just have a conversation with your manager, ask them for a one-on-one meeting, and explained to them how having a day without meetings is going to help them accomplish their project work. For example. Very simple. 

Jill Finlayson: Right. Tying it to the larger corporate goals. 

Khushboo Chabria: And if you have an understanding manager and you have someone who's like, yeah, that's totally understandable. Of course. Why don't we move this around, or take a look at this, or you don't need to come to this meeting. There's a lot of things the manager can do right there in that moment. Now, if the manager says no, this is not something that's possible, then the person can actually go to their HR office and decide to disclose. And that's very complicated. 

A lot of organizations still do require the person to provide a formal diagnosis in order to get an accommodation. And that's unfortunately something that not all neurodivergent people have, because many of them have grown up without ever getting diagnosed and are getting a late diagnosis, or have done a self-diagnosis by really researching into things and figuring out, wow, I've spent an entire lifetime not knowing I have autism or ADHD. 

We also have an increasing number of people who are identifying their diagnoses after their children are getting diagnoses. So there's all these different trends with how diagnostic processes have changed. Additionally, the first diagnoses that were created for autism, those assessments were created only by studying white eight-year-old middle class boys. It didn't include women, little girls. It didn't include people from other cultures, other races, other socioeconomic statuses. 

Since that time, our assessment processes have increased and improved a lot. However, we still have a lot of gaps in how we diagnose autistic, or ADHD, or dyslexic adults. So the tools were all created measuring, looking at, and studying children. But a lot of people are now identifying as adults that they struggled with the same things when they were children. 

Jill Finlayson: So in your view, official diagnosis is not something that should be a prerequisite for asking for accommodation. 

Khushboo Chabria: I'm not sure if it should be or it shouldn't, but I will say that there's a lot of barriers to getting a diagnosis. It's very expensive. The waiting lists are very long. The providers that do provide assessments are very few. You're already creating another five-step process for that person to get a no meeting day. 

Jill Finlayson: As we think about this, you do hear stories about people finding out in adulthood that they are dyslexic. And oh, that explains why I struggled in these situations. What was your experience and how did you find out that you had a diagnosis? 

Khushboo Chabria: So, it's really interesting because, before I got my diagnosis, I was already working with neurodivergent individuals as a clinician. So I was working with children with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, Tourette's, a lot of different things, hearing impaired, speech impaired. I worked a lot with non-speaking autistic people as well, which is actually a huge part of my experience before I went into the neurodiversity space. 

When I was in the field and interacting with people, socializing all day long, solving novel problems on the spot, that's where my ADHD thrives. I am at my best when I'm engaging with people, when I'm face to face, when I'm having a one-on-one conversation. Group conversations are a little tricky for me, with that interjecting in conversations. 

But working with a client, really focusing on something, and because I'm motivated by the work that I do, I am really engaged in what I'm doing and I'm really motivated to do it well. And so when I was working in the field as a clinician, I was great. I was on point. I was meeting all my performance measures, everything that my KPI included was great. But nobody tells you this, but the further you move up in your career, the more you get away from directly working with clients. 

And now you're managing people, and you're dealing with office politics, and you have deadlines, and you're fighting with insurance companies, and you have spreadsheets and reports due every single week. And it just becomes really, really tedious. And one of the main things that I struggle with in regards to my ADHD is my executive functioning. So executive functioning is our ability to organize tasks, manage our time, manage tasks. It's cognitive regulation, emotional regulation, behavior regulation. 

And it's being able to do lots of different kinds of things, like knowing how long something should take, knowing how to prioritize tasks even, knowing how to ask for information preemptively before you run into problems. These are all executive functioning issues that different people have. One of the things that we do in our workforce, for some reason, is we promote people based on merit, having degrees. But we were not actually taught management skills and how to lead people and how to deal with different personalities that you deal with when you're working with clients. 

And I kind of had to learn all of that on the spot. And so as a neurodivergent person, as I moved up further in my career, I just started struggling with everything. And I was falling behind in my work. And these things don't happen in a vacuum. It's like one thing leads to the other. So I was falling behind in my work. I was pulling all nighters to complete the work that I had to do. Now I'm sleep deprived at work. Now I'm cranky at work. It just turns into a whirlwind of chaos. 

And it's just simple things like that. Or I am dealing with a lot of office politics. Or I'm having to give corrective feedback to one of my therapists, for example. And now I'm stressed out about it all day and I'm not able to focus on the other things I need to get done. And as someone with anxiety, that affects me more than it affects someone who doesn't have anxiety. 

Jill Finlayson: So how did you know this wasn't just, oh, I'm stressed at work? How did you know there was something else going on? 

Khushboo Chabria: I actually ended up at a clinic. I wanted to go see a therapist because I thought I was just burnt out and depressed. And it just so happened that I had a therapist who was very keen to notice that in every single one of my stories, the point that led to all the issues was an executive functioning issue. And so she pulled that thread and she said, have you ever wondered if you have ADHD? And I had never even thought about it. 

When I was in college, I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, which who knows what that means, right? It could be anything. And then at some point, I was misdiagnosed as having bipolar disorder. Because bipolar disorder, the way it has the highs and lows, ADHD can look like that as well. Because people with ADHD have points in their journey where they're feeling a lot of depression because of the struggles that they're facing of having ADHD in a neurotypical world. 

You just constantly feel like you're getting nothing, right. And that takes a huge toll on your psyche. So my therapist noticed that all the stories that I was sharing with her led back to an executive functioning issue. And she had me do the test on a computer where I had to, I don't remember exactly what it was, but if you see this picture, then press this key. If you see this picture, press this key. 

Kept messing it up. She interviewed my mom. She basically went through all the notes of all the therapy that we had done together. And she created a report saying that I had ADHD. 

Jill Finlayson: And how did that diagnosis change how you thought about things? 

Khushboo Chabria: Honestly, at first I was relieved because I finally had an answer. So much of my life I had been made fun of for not having my things together, being disorganized. As a child, my teachers always complained that I was missing assignments or turning in things late. There's a history to all of these things. My mom reported in her interview how talkative I was as a child and how I had no boundaries with absolute strangers. 

I would just go up to people and ask them for things and just literally talk to anyone about anything. And I wanted to be around adults because I had so many questions to ask, as a young girl with ADHD. And I didn't feel close to peers my own age because they couldn't answer any of my questions. So my favorite activity would be to find an adult that was open to answering the questions I had, and literally just ask them about all kinds of random things to fulfill my curiosity before Google existed. 

Jill Finlayson: So compassionate curiosity was already a skill strength you brought. 

Khushboo Chabria: A lot of neurodivergent people have a lot of empathy. They are very compassionate. They're very committed to the work that they do. If they align with the mission of your organization, of the project, of the team, you will never see anyone work harder. A lot of them have very, very strong interest in specific areas. And they will know everything about that topic. 
So if a neurodivergent person is interested in gaming, they will know about the history of the game. They will know about the character development of the game. They will tell you about how the game has changed over time. They will know everything about every character in the game. They will know everything about that topic when they're passionate about it. 

A lot of neurodivergent people have super focus as well. That's something that I believe is an ADHD skill and a huge strength of mine, where when I am able to get into that flow state of deep focus, I'm able to get a week's worth of work done in just a few hours. 

Jill Finlayson: So recognizing that these type of personalities can be expressly good for certain roles. And you need that person who's absolutely expert and can go very deep on a particular topic. This is a person who could be a great fit for that. 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah, I mean, a lot of people don't know this, but people with ADHD are excellent entrepreneurs. They're great at networking as well. If you put them in business development and sales, they can do extremely well. 

Jill Finlayson: It's funny you should mention that. Some time ago, I interviewed the founder of Kinko's. And he said himself that he was ADHD, but he said that turned out to be one of the best aspects of his leadership, was he got out of the building. He let people do their jobs. He wasn't micromanaging or over them because he didn't want to be in the store. 

Khushboo Chabria: And that's why context matters. Because for me to get in a state of super focus, for example, I need to be in my room and I work from home. I have blackout curtains that I use to make my room dark. I put my headphones in. I put concentration music on so I don't want to be interrupted. And I just want to be in flow state for five to six hours. 

I get all my admin done. I make a lot of progress on project work. I might get a lot of reaching out to people, following up on things. I'm very detail-oriented as well. And we have to think about how great that is to have in the workplace if we can just accommodate it. 

Jill Finlayson: So that brings us back to the accommodations. So if we want to unleash this talent and potential, what are some of the systemic ways that companies can change the environment so that it works better for everyone? 

Khushboo Chabria: There's some really simple things. I think if we treat each other with the principle of compassionate curiosity, for example, that's a very simple way to accommodate everyone. If we are talking about wanting someone with high attention to detail in the workplace, we have to recognize what that actually looks like in the workplace. That's going to be the person who points out errors on the report. That's going to be someone who's going to correct you because they want what you're saying to be accurate. 

So if you notice someone who's doing that in the workplace, instead of assuming that that's coming from a negative intention, recognize that that person is bringing high attention to detail and a focus on excellence to the work. That's something we want in the workplace. If you want someone to be able to do that deep level of focus, for example, and you know that there are people who need dedicated time to do that deep work, recognize where we might be scheduling too many meetings or having too many interruptions. 

Are we expecting our employees to respond to emails as soon as they get them? And if we are, we have to think about how that impacts their ability to work. So even thinking about our simple processes and policies that we have. If you want creative and innovative thinkers in the workplace, such as people who think outside the box, and bring fresh perspectives to the table, we have to ask, are we open to those fresh perspectives in this meeting? Or are people getting shut down as soon as they suggest a new thing? 

Are we even hearing people? Are we giving people the space to share ideas? Or are we saying, no, this is how we've always done things? And these are some of the questions that I think organizations need to ask, because I don't think any organization sets out trying to create exclusion for any person with any identity. We don't think about it that way. 

But if we recognize that now that there's all this diversity among us and we have people who communicate differently, people who speak different languages, people who may be very literal in how they understand information, if we know that already as something we all accept as normal, why is it that we can't just change how we communicate a little bit differently so that everyone can be on the same page? 

Jill Finlayson: So it sounds like there's an opportunity, obviously, for leadership development and helping them to understand how clarity, how people might communicate in different ways, they might have different needs. So being more accommodating for different styles of doing the work. Are there also actionable steps for the HR department? Are there things that they should be doing to reduce that red tape that you were talking about? 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of recruitment and hiring, HR departments, leadership teams, management teams can look at whether their job descriptions are honest. Are we really expecting people to do the jobs of three different employees in one job description? Because most neurodivergent people who look at that are saying they're already not qualified for that position when they look at it on the other side of the screen. 

Jill Finlayson: So better job descriptions, fewer requirements, because if you list it, they're going to be like, I need to have that. 

Khushboo Chabria: Correct. I mean, if you have excellent written and verbal communication on your job description, most neurodivergent people are honest enough and have that much integrity that they will say that their communication skills are not excellent. It's a very simple thing, but if you actually put those terms in like a LinkedIn search, you'll notice that the majority of job descriptions use this canned language in how we identify what skills are actually necessary for a job. We have to think about that. 

The way we interview people is another thing. Having trick questions, having vague, open-ended questions in your interviews is something that's very confusing for neurodivergent people. For example, tell me about yourself. Something most conversations start with that question. And many neurodivergent people are absolutely stumped by that because it's so vague. And everyone answers that super differently, right? 

Are you asking about my work history? Are you asking about my educational background? Are you asking to tell you like an elevator pitch? What exactly is, tell me about yourself, and what interviewers are expecting from a question like that? 

Jill Finlayson: How would you change that question? And if I'm on the receiving end of that question, how could I change that question so I understand it better? 

Khushboo Chabria: The way I teach my students is to share a couple of things about-- so I ask them to share three strands a personal strength, a professional strength, and a strength that's directly relevant to the job that you're applying to. So being able to say, Hi, I'm Khushboo. And you can start with seeing your educational background. So you can say, I have a degree in this and this, and I'm really passionate about this. And these are three strengths of mine. And that's how I have my students answer it. 

But if you're an employer, instead of asking that, saying, what made you apply to this position? And how do you feel that your previous work experience can be applied to a position like this one? We can be more specific in how we ask questions. And we can be more clear in what it is that we're expecting people to respond with in order for us to feel that they're qualified for that position. 

Jill Finlayson: Rather than making people guess what you're trying to get at. 

Khushboo Chabria: And also, I don't know where in society we went from asking people about their ability to do a job to just random questions. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, they definitely have been doing that. Like, what do you do outside of work? And you're like, wait, I was in work mode. What are you asking me about outside of work? 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah. And there's the surprise questions, the trick questions, the timed questions. Now we're just making it an obstacle course for a neurodivergent person, right? There's a lot of things in the entire recruitment and hiring process that companies need to look at in terms of how many barriers they're actually creating for people who may not understand the social aspect of the interview, or who may communicate just a little bit differently than you expect. 

But those things are actually basically making it so that we're missing out on this amazing talent that's out there, by creating these weird, arbitrary rules that shouldn't apply to how we identify as someone could do a job. 

Jill Finlayson: So say they make it through the obstacle course and they have a job, what are some of the ways that coworkers can help them thrive? And thinking about this, coworkers may notice somebody is very blunt or direct, or they may notice that somebody is not participating in the social activities. So what could a coworker do? And has there been an experience that you've had with a coworker that really helped you and made you feel welcome? 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah. I feel like I'm going to sound like a broken record when I say this, Jill, but I have to. It's about compassionate curiosity. If someone didn't laugh at a joke or if someone's not participating in a meeting, instead of assuming that that person didn't want to participate or didn't have anything to say, I could just say, hey, I've noticed in the meetings, in a one-on-one conversation outside of a meeting context, by the way, I've noticed in the meetings you haven't really been sharing that much. 

Is there a reason why? Are you feeling uncomfortable to share? Is there something else going on? Usually, if you open that door, most people will be really honest. They might say, I don't know when to speak up, or I feel like I'm kind of just interrupting people because these other people in our meeting are always talking, or by the time I do get the chance to share, the topic has changed. It could also be, I didn't understand the joke, right? But when we clarify things and we open up that conversation, it's like this pressure valve gets released. 

Jill Finlayson: Did you see that happen with you? Or has one of your clients shared a story where it made them feel a greater sense of belonging because of something their coworker did? 

Khushboo Chabria: Absolutely. Just being able to have a coworker who checks in with you or confirms that everyone's on the same page can make a world of a difference. And we all need that, right? It's not just neurodivergent people. We all need that. One of the things that I've actually heard my colleagues experience is that after they did one of their presentations, and we do these Neurodiversity in the Workplace awareness presentations for organizations, big and small, all different kinds. 

And very often, having that training in the workplace signals to all the employees that that organization is supportive of neurodiversity just because they took that step of acknowledging neurodiversity. Oftentimes, after those trainings, people will come up to us and share, I feel so seen. My team doesn't know this, but I actually have autism. And I haven't shared that with them. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, especially since this isn't necessarily a visible disability, you may not know. 

Khushboo Chabria: You may not know. And maybe those colleagues also in that same training noticed some of the things we talked about in regards to strengths and differences, and maybe acknowledge that one of my colleagues on my team processes information differently than I do. So maybe instead of being really vague or making sarcastic comments, I can be more direct and not speak in metaphors. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah. I work with a lot of global audiences. And there are so many phrases I catch myself saying that I'm like, till the cows came home. Why did I say this? This makes no sense. 

Khushboo Chabria: I know, I know. And there's a lot of these things that we say. I'm very exaggerative in how I speak, Jill. And sometimes, I got into a habit of just saying I'm tired all the time when people ask me how I was, just as a personality trait or something. And it's so cute because my autistic clients and our coaching call will hear me say I'm tired and ask me if I want to reschedule our meeting. Because they take information that literally. It's so sweet. 

But if I actually share with them that I've had a really, really awful day, even though I'm their coach, they kind of want to check in with me too. These are the things that, when we create psychological safety, we create better connection. When we have better connection with our team, we work better together. One thing that we like to always talk about in our presentations that we do with organizations is that Google did this Aristotle project, where they basically looked at teams and they had one team, which was all the high-performing people in the organization that were really amazing at what they do, had all the credentials, top schools, top A-performing team. 

And then they had a second team that wasn't as well performing but had high psychological safety. And the team with psychological safety beat the other team in every measure. And we've seen this in the research. So it's not so much about this is just a nice thing to have. This is about how can we create better work environments where people can bring their best selves to the workplace, where people can feel understood for their differences and accepted for who they are, so that all of us can have better outcomes in the work that we produce and in how well we do as an organization. 

Organizations need to recognize that including neurodiversity in the workplace is not so much of like, oh, we need to prepare for the neurodivergent people that are entering the workforce. It's about recognizing that neurodivergent people are already there. Neurodivergent people are already there. They're probably masking. They're probably struggling. They're probably not asking questions. And they're probably not bringing fresh, new perspectives to the table because there's an environment that isn't creating psychological safety to do so. 

Jill Finlayson: They're not able to achieve their potential. 

Khushboo Chabria: Correct. Having ADHD, I've been in a workplace where my strengths were looked at as a nice to have and an extra thing. And I've been in workplaces where I've had managers look at those trends and say, how can I put those trends to use? And there's a difference, because when my strengths are being put to use, and there's a little bit of flexibility and understanding about the things that are harder for me, I'm able to learn the things that are harder for me and excel at the things that I'm great at, and really move the mission forward in a way that's transformational not just for my team, but for my entire organization. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, it's really interesting because the more we talk about it, this idea of adaptability, clarity, being able to articulate your needs, all of these things are relevant to everyone, as we pointed out. And they are already in the workplace. So being able to create systems that allow people to be more effective is obviously a top goal. So as you think about this, if we look at each one of these audiences a little bit differently, for the neurodivergent person who you said may be masking, and maybe you want to say a little bit about what that is, how might they unmask and how might they get the most out of their career? 

Khushboo Chabria: Absolutely. Masking is the neurodivergent person's way of coping in a neurotypical world. Masking might be me pretending to be comfortable with small talk or sarcasm, even though I don't understand it. I might laugh at a joke that I don't understand, for example, that's me masking in that conversation. So to be able to unmask, first of all, when there is psychological safety, people automatically unmask. 

So if, for example, you have a manager who says, I want you to be honest with me. I want you to be direct with me. Any question is OK. There's no stupid questions. The door is open. I want to be able to help you. And I want to be able to manage you. And I want to be able to work with you and collaborate with you and empower you in the way that you need. And anything that you say is fair game because I want this to work for both of us. 

Let's say we just start with that conversation. And if on your very first one-on-one with your new employee, you say that, and you make it really clear that we're in this together, we're a team. I want to empower you. I want to make sure that your goals are being met and what you want to accomplish as an employee here, as a professional in this organization. And how can I help you get there? 

When you create that room, now that person knows that they can come to you with questions. They can say, oh, I really don't understand that joke that you said the other day. And I did laugh in that moment, but to be honest, I didn't get it. And that might be not something that you feel comfortable to share if you've already not created some shared norms and expectations around being open with each other. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, that shared norms and the unwritten rules comes back into play here. If you make people guess, they feel uncomfortable. 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah. Yeah. Another thing is neurodivergent people really benefit from getting context. So for me to be motivated to do something, I need to know the larger context of why I'm doing something. So my manager will literally say, this is what I need you to do and this is how this is going to impact our larger mission. And this will help us go do this, this, and this, and hopefully in the future it will lead to this. 

And not a lot of people think that far ahead. But even if he just went one level with that to explain the context to me, for me as an ADHD person, it helps me click into that deep focus and strategizing mode. And I'm immediately clicked into what it is that I need to do and how I could go about it. And immediately, I'm able to ask him questions about, well, I understand this, this, and this, but can you explain this to me before I start? 

And him being able to answer those questions and be very direct and explicit with me helps me get back on track. A lot of us also need some accountability. So if you are, suppose a manager who assigns a task, but then there's no check-ins before something is due, a lot of my clients will ask for the accommodation of having more check-ins so that they know they're on the right track. Sometimes, managers will say they don't have time for that. 

So again, do you see how these things become barriers for someone who may need support in a different way? But maybe the policies and procedures of the organization, or even how someone manages a team, can cause challenges for the neurodivergent person to really get what it is that they need to be successful. 

Jill Finlayson: We've covered a huge amount of ground. So if you were to have parting words of wisdom to somebody who identifies as neurodivergent, what are your parting words of wisdom to them? 

Khushboo Chabria: I would say that the best thing that any neurodivergent person can do for themselves is to learn as much as they can about their strengths so that they can lead with their strengths, and understand as much as they can about their differences as well. Because it's equally important to know how your mind, how your brain works differently so that you can ask for the things that you need. And that self-acceptance and that self-compassion that we all need to have for ourselves can help you be more empowered to advocate for yourself and to enter the room and be able to say, this is how I work best. This is what I need. 
I would really appreciate more feedback. I would really appreciate more check-ins. Being able to say those kinds of things as a neurodivergent person is incredibly empowering. And I think we are all afraid to ask for help. We're all afraid to speak up. We're all afraid to really be open and vulnerable. But sometimes, when you're in a safe environment, having that space to share what it is that you're experiencing, and sharing your perspectives, cannot just change the experience for yourself, but it can also empower everyone else in the team, everyone else in the room, everyone else in the auditorium, wherever you are, to think about something differently. 

And we all need that. We all need that right now. So I think that if you are a neurodivergent person, reach that place of self-compassion and self-acceptance. Lead with your strengths. And always, always, always advocate. Because self-advocacy is not supposed to be some weird, complicated HR process. It is about asking for what we need so we can show up as our best, most authentic person wherever we are. 

Jill Finlayson: And your top tips for the companies or the leaders? Obviously, compassionate curiosity and being responsive to these requests when people express what they need. Is there anything else that they should be doing? 

Khushboo Chabria: Yeah. I think organizations need to do a lot better job of increasing awareness about neurodiversity in their workplace, not just for the people who are entering the workforce, which many of them are neurodivergent, but also the neurodivergent people that are already in your workplace. There might be people in your workplace already who are masking, who are struggling, who are not disclosing their diagnoses, because they're afraid that they will not be accepted and they will not be included because of their differences. 

Jill Finlayson: So what does the future of work look like with everybody included? How do you see in the next 5 years, 10 years, how is the workplace going to improve? 

Khushboo Chabria: I think the workplace needs to take a really good, hard look at the kind of experience that they are providing to their employees, and to identify ways to do things differently. Because even if we've done things a certain way for a very, very, very long time, we all have a duty and responsibility to look at that and say where can we do a better job? And since COVID and all the different transitions we've had, from being able to work from home and going back to the office, and this whole wave of layoffs, and the beginning of AI, we're in a lot of transformational times right now. 

And I think what every organization needs to focus on is getting ahead of all of this change and really doing the really intentional, important work of improving the psychological safety within their organizations. If they don't, they're just going to fall behind. And people today want to work in organizations where they do feel included and accepted and where they do feel belonging. And regardless of what's going on in the rest of society, diversity is here. It's not going anywhere. 

Jill Finlayson: And what makes you optimistic about the future for neurodivergence? 

Khushboo Chabria: I think what makes me optimistic about the future in terms of neurodivergent people in the workplace is that the awareness has increased a lot over the years. There's a lot more people talking about neurodiversity today than they were even two years ago, five years ago. And that's a huge change. There's a lot of young people who are not being afraid to advocate for what it is that they need. And there's a lot of neurodivergent people who are being really empowered in that identity, rather than feeling shame from it or other negative feelings attached to that. 

And that's really important for us as a society to celebrate. We need to celebrate people being open about their neurodivergence, because we live in a world where all of our perspectives are needed. That is what makes this diversity the diversity that it is. And it is beautiful because we all have different perspectives that we bring to the table. And that's what moves us forward as a species, in my opinion. 

Jill Finlayson: Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for being part of this change and awareness. And thank you for sharing your experience and your insights on how people can really make this a reality and really embrace and unleash all of this amazing potential. 

Khushboo Chabria: Thank you so much, Jill. I really appreciate you. 

Jill Finlayson: Thank you so much, Khushboo. And with that, I hope you enjoyed this latest in a long series of podcasts that we'll be sending your way every month. Please share with friends and colleagues who may be interested in taking this Future of Work journey with us. And make sure to check out extension.berkeley.edu to find a variety of courses to help you thrive in this new working landscape. And to see what's coming up at EDGE in Tech, go ahead and visit edge.berkeley.edu. 

Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back next month to talk about organizational communication strategies to succeed. The Future of Work podcast is hosted by Jill Finlayson, produced by Sarah Benzuly, and edited by Matt Dipietro, Natalie Newman, and Elysia Liao. 

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