PIP—Friend or Foe?

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Sonya Sigler: Somewhere in there, it's a wake up call. Have the self-awareness to really understand what's being said to you. Is it a way to get you out? Or is it a way to really help you? Even if it's a way to get you out, is it a way to get you out of the company? Is it a way to get you out of that department, out from under that person? Or is it a way to truly improve what you're doing? 

Jill Finlayson: Welcome to the Future of Work podcast with Berkeley Extension and the EDGE in Tech at the University of California, focused on expanding diversity and gender equity in tech. EDGE in Tech is part of the Innovation Hub at CITRIS, the Center for IT Research in the Interest of Society and the Banatao Institute. UC Berkeley Extension is the continuing education arm of the University of California at Berkeley. 

In this episode, we're going to shed light on a sensitive subject that many professionals encounter, but very few understand, performance improvement plans, or PIPs. It's time to bring PIPs out of the shadows and talk about them. You may be a manager trying to guide your team to success and have a challenging employee who is struggling, and you face having to put them on a PIP. Maybe you are that employee, struggling to understand what is expected of you and frustrated by your lack of advancement and facing a PIP. Let's explore and break down the stigma of what a PIP really is, how it can be used to support growth, rather than be used as a disciplinary measure, and what both employees and managers can do to navigate this often tricky process. 

To do so, we're chatting with Sonya Sigler. Sonya is the founder of PractiGal Coaching and Consulting, an IP lawyer, and bestselling author of Welcome to the Next Level and What's Next for my Career? In her private coaching and consulting work, Sonya works with corporate teams, founders, executives, entrepreneurs, and legal professionals to provide them with tools and connections they need to succeed. Self-care is an essential part of helping herself and her clients to build the intentional life that they desire. Welcome, Sonya. 

Sonya Sigler: Thank you, Jill. I appreciate you having me. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, you have a very impressive resume, and it looks like a very successful career. Would you say your career is an important part of your identity? 

Sonya Sigler: Gosh, I would say as a lawyer, it was my identity. But I have since grown. And now that I'm doing coaching and consulting and other things, I would say it's a part of my identity, not my actual identity. 

Jill Finlayson: And do you mind if I ask you a personal question? 

Sonya Sigler: Sure. 

Jill Finlayson: Have you ever been fired, laid off, or put on a performance improvement plan? 

Sonya Sigler: I'd say, all of the above. 

Jill Finlayson: It's not something that appears on your resume. It's not something people like to talk about. And it's not something that I think people would even suspect had occurred to you. 

Sonya Sigler: So I would say, in my very first job, I was laid off, and I was also put on a performance improvement plan. And as a lawyer, in the 30-year career that I've had, I've had exactly one employee evaluation. It was at that very first job. And that's also where I was put on a PIP because I didn't play by the rules. 

Jill Finlayson: And that is the question. There are all these reasons and all these things that could lead to a performance improvement plan. I have to say, me too. I was actually put on a performance improvement plan, was very ashamed about it, didn't want to talk to anybody about it. And then I found out later that it had happened to a number of other people who were high performers. I was surprised, and I was shocked because nobody talked about it. 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah, it can be quite a wallop, just going back to the shame, and embarrassment, and the-- it feels like the end of the world, like, oh my god, I'm so smart. And I've done this job for three years. Why is this happening now? All those feelings and emotions. It's kind of hard to navigate in the moment. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, and you feel like you're working really hard. In fact, oftentimes when the situation is not feeling right, you feel like you're working even harder. And then there's all this sort of emotional labor on top of it. How many people do you think are on a PIP at any given moment? 

Sonya Sigler: I think it's way higher than we think. And if you start asking around, people will be like, oh yeah, I was put on one of those at this job. And then it starts coming out. It's just not talked about. And I've been very successful in my career. And if I was on a PIP in my very first job, why was that? And I look back on it now, and it's because I didn't get along with my boss and I didn't play the game that he wanted me to play, which was kowtow to him and be deferential, which I'm not sure that's in my personality. 

Jill Finlayson: I asked ChatGPT, and I think it said 2% to 5% of the workforce is on a PIP at any given moment. That's a huge number of people. And the fact that you and I have experienced it, but we don't talk about it-- no one talks about it-- and so people think when it happens to them, it's uncommon, that they're exceptionally bad, that they're the unusual. 

Sonya Sigler: And it feels like the end of the world. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah. 

Sonya Sigler: It feels like the end of the world, but it's not that unusual. And you really have to suss out, is it used as a tool where you are, to get people out the door? Or is it used as a tool to really help people become better at their jobs or better fit for their skills? 

Jill Finlayson: Absolutely. And regardless, it's information and information that you can act on. So why do these circumstances arise that lead to somebody being put on a performance improvement plan? 

Sonya Sigler: I think it can happen for a number of reasons. One of them, I think, just from a perception standpoint, is that it's a way to move people out the door. And sometimes it can be that. But other times it can really be like, I want them to improve. I've had employees who I really want to succeed, but they're not listening to what I need, as a manager and as a team. I think there's just multiple reasons. But you kind of have to look at the bigger picture and suss out if your company uses them to counsel people out or if your company uses them to really help people improve. Which is it? And it could be that your company, instead of firing people, just puts them on PIPs. And then people get frustrated and leave. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I think that there is a mix. And that's something that hopefully we can unpack a little bit here, is how can you tell what's going on? But maybe before we dig into what questions to ask, let's find out what exactly is a performance improvement plan? How should they work? 

Sonya Sigler: Usually, performance improvement plans are something that come from HR, or from your manager, through HR, and they are, let's just say, a veil, a thin veil, of what you can do or what you've done wrong, and then what you can do to improve. And usually, it's so vague that it's very difficult to take action on. And so when I said earlier in terms of what kind of organization are you at, are you at one that's really trying to help you get better and become a good employee, productive, efficient, all of those things? Or is it a tool and a mechanism to get you out the door without actually firing you? 

Jill Finlayson: So as a manager, if you have a person who maybe isn't working out, you're trying to either counsel them to improve, or you're letting them know that they're not meeting the requirements so that they may have to be let go, or they may decide to leave on their own, it feels like this should be a last resort. What's your take on that? 

Sonya Sigler: I totally think it should be a last resort, because if you're not communicating regularly to your employees, how do they know it's an issue? When I manage a lot of people, I like for each of them to have a plan. And I kept a note for each of them. And I kept questions for each of them. And the plan that we had was something that came from the employee, like, why do you want to be in this job? Where do you want to go after this job? How can I help you get there? My view as a manager was I was a person who could run interference to help them get the resources they needed to do their job and to help them get the kind of assignments that would give them the skills that they wanted to learn. I don't want anybody bored on my team. I don't want anybody languishing either. 

So I look at it as a last resort. And not every company or manager looks at it that way. I do believe in regular communication. I don't want anything to be surprises. And I think that people get sideswiped by being put on a PIP when they didn't even think there was an issue. And now, this comes to fruition. And I think some companies do use them as a tool to help people. But think more of a use it as a tool to cover up bad employment practices in terms of being able to communicate with employees. 

Jill Finlayson: In the case of trying to improve, the manager is up against it. So from an empathy for the manager perspective, they're trying to get work done. There's a member of their team that isn't delivering at the level, and that's affecting the other team players, and they need to get this person working better. From the employee's perspective, they perhaps don't understand what the ask is, or they're not given the supports to achieve the goals that they have. So can you say a little bit about why an employee might be blindsided? Why might they be surprised? 

Sonya Sigler: I think there are a couple reasons. One, they're not actually taking time to do any self-reflection, so they don't reflect on, am I even happy in this position? Is this a good fit for me? Do I even like working at this company? Do I like the work I'm doing? So there can be like an ostrich with your head in the sand, where they're not doing any self-reflection. They're not looking at the bigger picture in terms of are they happy in the job? Are they doing the work? Do they thrive in it? 

The other reason is because things are unclear. You could be micromanaged in a way that everything is becoming difficult. And that could be because your boss is insecure, or they're newly promoted beyond their competence. There could be a variety of reasons for that. Or there isn't clarity overall in what the corporate team goals are or the corporate goals. And so you're trying to fit a square peg into around hole, and you don't have clarity on what you're supposed to be doing. So all those factors can lead to, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't even know how to succeed in this job. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I like the fact that you started out your response by talking about what the person should be asking themselves. Rather than asking, what am I doing wrong, what does the company not like, I think your question of, are you happy in this position, is this a good fit for you, do you get along with your boss, I think those are really important questions to ask because it isn't necessarily about you or your qualifications or the company and their needs. It might be around the fit. 

Sonya Sigler: I think there are a couple of things when it comes to fit. And the second book that I wrote, which is, What's Next for my Career? I tell the story of my five years at Intuit. It was an amazing company. It was an amazing department. It was an amazing job. It was not the right job for me. And it took me a little bit of time to figure that out. I really liked working in the department. It was a lot of smart people. We were growing like gangbusters. But the work was too repetitive to be a good fit for me and my entrepreneurial mindset. It's was an it's me, not you, kind of phenomenon. 

And so once I realized that, I was like, I need to go to startups. I need to go somewhere where the innovation is happening on a daily basis, not something that's repetitive. I looked at it as, gosh, I've negotiated the same kind of agreement over and over. This is like number 50 or number 55 of this type of agreement. To me, that was a little bit boring. And also, we were doing a lot of mergers and acquisitions. And I was one of the lawyers doing the due diligence. And it's like, when you don't see an end in sight, no light at the end of the tunnel, it can be really difficult to stay engaged because you're like, I don't see an end in sight in this. 

So for me, it was a great realization when I finally figured out that I needed to be at the beginning of something, at the idea stage, at the brainstorming stage, rather than the implementation of repetition stage. That fit is something that you have to do a lot of self-reflection on. And so if you're put on a PIP, you should use that as a piece of information. This should be kind of a wake up call, especially if it's out of the blue, because something's not working, and you're either denying it or you're not looking, like you've got your head in the sand. So I do think it's important for you to do that self-reflection and to figure that out. And is this even a fit for you? 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I think we sometimes think company culture will change. But that very rarely does. And I too have stayed in a position too long. I've heard you call yourself a bitter ender. What's a bitter ender? 

Sonya Sigler: I am someone who thinks, I can always make it work. And I'm going to stay till the bitter end. I'm going to be the one that turns out the lights on the way out. And to me, that means I don't leave a position, whereas maybe I should have, if I've learned everything I can learn in that position, and there's nowhere for me to go, which happens a lot in a legal department. There's not a lot of career trajectory in a legal department. So either I'm adding skills, or I'm looking to take on more and different types of work, or like I said, I'm a bitter ender. I didn't get the message that I've learned everything I can. I need to move on. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, if we're thinking about this and we're now-- we've got some questions to ask ourself about, are we content? Are we getting satisfaction out of our job? But what are some of the early warning signs that you might be at risk of being put on a PIP? 

Sonya Sigler: If your boss has set meetings with you, and then canceled them, or puts you off, or doesn't respond, like you're seeking feedback, like, let's say they wanted to see something before you put it out there, a contract, or marketing materials, whatever it is for your job, and they don't respond. That either means you're not a priority. The work is not a priority. You're not getting that time and attention that you did or that you used to. Or maybe-- here's the opposite end of that. You're getting too much attention. You're getting too micromanaged. Or, let's see, you're not given those plum work assignments any longer, or you have to scrounge up work, or it's not clear on what even you should be doing. 

I think that kind of happened when I came back from maternity leave, and there was another attorney that had taken my place, and we were doing so much work that he stayed after I came back from maternity leave. So I'm like, well, now what do I do? Do I support the same groups? Do I do the same work? So I was kind of in that position of I don't have the same work that I did when I was before maternity leave, so I had to scrounge up some work. So if you find that you're in that kind of position where maybe you're not a priority anymore, you're not having your boss's ear, those can kind of be red flags, or those can be, the indicia that points to things are not going well. 

Jill Finlayson: I think that's really interesting because people do sometimes take a break from work for various reasons, health or a family member, and they come back, and somebody has assumed their responsibility. So it's really interesting that you had to redefine what your job description was when you came back. 

Sonya Sigler: For the last two months, I have been a caregiver for my mom. And so I basically dropped everything that was not essential. And now, I'm getting back into it. And it's kind of you have to take that holistic look that I mentioned earlier, in terms of, what is my role? What am I doing here? Why is the work that I'm doing important? And even if that's for yourself as an entrepreneur, even in a position with an employer, you can do that and take that look. I think it's important to be able to understand the context of what are you doing to help the employer succeed? And how does the work that you're doing fit into that? 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I think it's always important to level up. It's very hard when you're put on a performance improvement plan, and it's all about you individually and responding to this very defensive attack on you as a person to take the time to say, how does my job contribute to the larger organization? How does this lead to impact? And do you have recommendations on how do you mentally look at this bigger picture in context? 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah, I think companies are not always clear on where they're headed. I'm going to get back to an example at Intuit. When we switched over from being a desktop software company with Quicken to becoming an online financial services powerhouse, where everything was online and the software was just a piece of that, we actually, as a company, took a year to do some soul searching. So you mentioned earlier the culture changes don't necessarily happen in a company. This was kind of the opposite of that, where they said, we have to change. The industry is changing. The technology is changing. We have to change with it. What can we do as a company? 

And they took a year with McKinsey & Company, came in, did a lot of consulting, met with everybody. We came out of that with a very clear picture of what we were going to be doing. And I would say that's rare. And most companies don't have that kind of clarity. So if the company's not clear, and your manager is not clear, it's going to be really hard for you to be clear on how do you fit into the big picture, or how do you fit into the company picture and what they're trying to achieve? And so if you don't have that kind of clarity, it's really hard to define success in your position. And if you're being micromanaged, and you can't get clarity, then it's doubly hard to find that success. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I think getting clarity around what is success, how do they measure success, what are they looking for, and not through your lens, but through your boss's lens or through the company lens. But to your point, if the company isn't clear, that's going to trickle down to you not being clear. 

Sonya Sigler: It boils down to communication here, this type of communication in terms of closing the loop. If you're hearing things like what are you doing, give me a status report, like those kind of things, like tell me everything you're doing or did this week and you got to give a report on Fridays, that either means you're not communicating, or you're not communicating the right information. So your boss may be in a pickle because their boss asked for something and they don't have the information from you. And so now, they're being put on the spot. And so they come to you in a tizzy, wanting to know about a project or the status of something. 

So that communication has to go up the chain and around the chain, if you will, because if people don't know what you're doing, then they're going to make some assumptions. And the assumptions may not be true, like you're not doing anything. So think this whole work from home, versus back in the office, there's a lot of that going on now. If I can't see you, I don't know what you're doing, which is baloney, because everything should be results-based. Am I getting you the results you wanted? Am I producing the work you need? But that's not how people work. 

Jill Finlayson: So if I'm getting the sense that something is wrong-- and people are pretty intuitive. People sort of sense something's not quite right. Maybe they're being asked multiple times to do the same thing, and they're like, I did that. What are some of the things that they might be interpreting correctly? And what are some of the things that they might be blowing out of proportion? And when is there cause for concern? 

Sonya Sigler: I think if you're being asked multiple times for the same thing, it's probably more of a communication issue, or maybe you're just not doing the work. Maybe you're not getting it done. Maybe you're not finishing that report on time, or maybe you're not finishing that brief on time. So part of it is make sure you're doing the job that you were hired for. Make sure you're doing the job that you were hired for well, because if you're getting messages like that, where you're being asked multiple times for the same thing, something's not right here. Either you're not doing it, or you're not communicating it, or it wasn't what your boss wanted, which is also a communication issue. 

That's kind of like the price of admission for doing well as an employee and for being successful. In the book that I'm working on right now, Set Yourself Up for Success, that is one of the things that I thought was going to be one of the top five skills. And every person I interviewed said, no, you have to have that. That's the price of admission. You can't even get to the other skills unless you can communicate well. So I feel like getting to the point where a PIP is even a possibility, something's going on in the communication. Either you're not communicating what you're doing, or your boss is not communicating what they want. Either way, it's a bad recipe all the way around. 

Jill Finlayson: When do you know if you're undercommunicating? When are you overcommunicating? Maybe you're annoying people. 

Sonya Sigler: I think if you've reached the point of overcommunicating, which is rare-- but let's say you have reached that point of becoming annoying-- you're going to see it in people. So this goes back to read the room and emotional intelligence, which is one of the top five skills, to be able to read the room and to be able to see that, see people's expressions, see people cutting you off, like I don't want to hear that again, or you've already said too much. You've talked too much in this meeting. So I think you just have to plug in and see how people are reacting. 

Let's go back to the being ignored, ignore your emails, and you're not getting responses. That could be another way of you've annoyed me to the point where I'm not going to respond. So I think you have to have some self-awareness in there to be able to ask the questions. Am I overcommunicating? Am I undercommunicating? Is there a different way you'd like me to communicate? Because if someone leaves me an email, I personally hate email, so I'd rather be communicated by text or by phone. And I know there's a perceived generation gap in terms of people not picking up the phone, or not leaving voicemail, or not even listening to voicemail. So I think you just have to really understand the communication method that is best received for the person that you're speaking with. 

Jill Finlayson: So I think this is important, and if you've got any tips on how to build that emotional maturity, how to be better at reading the room because it's not a skill that you're innately born with. It's something that you actually have to learn and pay attention to people's facial expressions and body motions, as well as the words that they say. So how do you build those kind of competencies. 

Sonya Sigler: I'm going to go back to the be self-aware part of what we were talking about earlier, in terms of, is that a skill you have? Or is that something you need to work on? And there are classes on it. I took a class early on dealing with difficult people. I took a class early on in my career, both at Sega and at Intuit, on negotiations and negotiation strategies and tactics. And some of these things come naturally. Some of them don't. And if it comes naturally to you, excellent. If it doesn't, then seek out that kind of information and that kind of resource. And I do think practice-- go sit in a meeting and look around at people's expressions. Are they engaged? Are they leaning forward? Are they leaning back? Are they scrolling away on their phone? Are they checked out, looking out the window? You can help yourself by just putting yourself in situations. 

Jill Finlayson: Let's jump into it. You're looking down the barrel of a PIP. You've been told you're put on a performance improvement plan. How should you react? And how should you not let this sort of blow up your world and your self-esteem? 

Sonya Sigler: It's so easy to fall into that abyss and wallow in the self-pity, and the how is this happening to me, and why is this happening to me. I'm doing such a good job, all those things. Somewhere in there, it's a wake up call. So have the self-awareness to really understand what's being said to you. Is it a way to get you out, or is it a way to really help you? Even if it's a way to get you out, is it a way to get you out of the company? Is it a way to get you out of that department, out from under that person? Or is it a way to truly improve what you're doing? So you kind of have to be self-aware enough to read the situation. What is this that's going on? 

I think you also have to understand what your skills are and what your weaknesses are. If you're being asked to do a job, like I was at Intuit, where the work is repetitive, and that leads me to boredom and disengagement, that's not a recipe for success. So I learned kind of the hard way that I had to be engaged, and I had to be in a position where there was something new all the time. And then do you need to acknowledge the kernel of truth in what's being said to you? If you're getting vague information, like you're not a team player, what does that even mean? But that is one of the things that comes up. 

Or, oh, you've been late three times this week, or you missed a meeting. Well, yeah, I told you I was going to be out at my kid's soccer game. So yeah, I was going to miss that meeting. But I told you ahead of time. That's different than if you keep missing something and you've never set the expectation that you're going to miss something. So I would say that have to really understand, is this a permanent fatal thing? Or is this something that's temporary, like you can get better at communicating that expectation of I'm going to miss this meeting? Or is it something different than that? So I think going back to that, knowing your strengths and weaknesses. 

So let's talk about accountability for a second. You have to be accountable for your role in this. It doesn't just happen in a vacuum. You didn't just get put on a PIP because your manager had a bad day. It's not like that. So you do have to be accountable and take personal responsibility for your role in this. Also, going back to that, what's in it for me? What's in it for you? That context and that bigger context. If you're not producing something that your boss needs to succeed, that's a mismatch in expectations. That's fixable. That's communication. But if your skill is not something that's needed for that role, then that's just not a fit. So you want to know that. 

So I think you have to take that kernel of truth, you have to take personal responsibility to figure it out. Is it a match for you or not? And then the last part of this is if you are so emotionally damaged from being on a PIP in the first place that you can't get through that shame or embarrassment to even see it for what it is, you've got to do some soul searching. I really want to understand this. What does being a team player mean? What am I not doing that you expect? What am I doing that you didn't expect and that's not helping? I want the good and the bad and the ugly. I really want to understand what I'm doing that's not working. I really want to understand what I am doing that is working. 

It's kind of hard to come with questions when you're hurting, or you've lost your confidence, or you see this as a black mark that's going to follow you around forever and be on your permanent record, those bad thoughts. I think you kind of have to take the moment, wallow in the self-pity, and then let it go, to move on to what's next because if you're stuck in that, it's not going to end well, so coming with a curious mind and then being able to figure out that context. 

So how do I fit into the organization? How do I and the work that I'm doing fit into that and the objectives we have as a group and as a company? Because if you don't understand that, it's really hard to figure out what the success factors are because that's the last part of it, is what does success look like? If I'm being put on this PIP, what does success look like to get me off of it? Is it a month-long thing? Is it a 90-day thing? Is it-- if I'm a salesperson, and my sales numbers are down, that's a pretty easy measurement. Yes, I met the criteria, or no, I didn't. If you are in a different role that's much more subjective, it's hard to define success.

So that's why I mean keep asking some questions that are going to define that for what you in that particular PIP and what success looks like. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I think another thing that I learned through failure was that you have to think about how your actions can affect your teammates, how it can have a trickle-down effect. So, for example, I was often trying to do a lot of things. And so I realized that I wasn't giving people enough notice. I wasn't giving them enough time to do the work that they would need to do. And it's because I was trying to cram in more things than I could do. 

And so I wasn't reaching out to people earlier. And I had to train myself to reply to emails, even if I wasn't ready to reply to the email. I would reply by saying I've received this. Here's the general idea of what I'm trying to do. I don't have it final yet. But at least I gave them a heads up. They had visibility into what was coming, and they could do some preparation on their part. So I think there are some questions you could ask about, how does my work affect my colleagues? How might I help them to be more successful as well? 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah, I think I want to touch on something you said in terms of setting expectations. So it's much different if I tell my boss the day something's due that I'm not going to have it done, than if a week ahead of time, I say, look, I'm traveling. I've got this, that, and the other priority. I'm not going to be able to get this done on the date that you requested it. What would be acceptable? And then they can either reset your priorities for you, or you have a conversation about it, or you move the deadline based on an expectation that you're setting well ahead of time, as opposed to springing it on someone. So I think that's different. So that setting expectations is really important. 

And I do think that having the bigger picture in terms of how your work affects your boss or your colleagues or people below you is really important, because if you don't take all that into consideration, it's going to lead to breakdown in communication and a breakdown in trust, which is much harder to rebuild. 

Jill Finlayson: I'm reminded of another reason I got put on a performance improvement plan. I was working with pivot tables. And I realized I was very uncomfortable working with pivot tables. And it was not something I'd been trained on. And I was doing my best to figure it out. But you know what I never did? I never asked for help. I never asked for training. I never asked for assistance to learn the pivot tables. So what kind of resources should you be asking for if you're on a PIP? 

Sonya Sigler: I think this is really important because this goes back to the success factors, like, is this really meant to make me more successful as an employee or put me in a position that is more suited to my skills? Or is this really meant to move me out of the company, make me miserable until I move out? If resources are made available to you, you should avail yourself to all of them because that shows your interest in becoming better and becoming a better fit in finding that better fit. 

So I think I told you about the negotiations class. So I've taken a few of those. And as a lawyer, you want to be able to negotiate. But in daily life, it helps as well because you're navigating-- every single day, you're navigating something, whether it's setting an expectation, whether it's negotiating for Family Medical Leave Act time, whether it's negotiating a better work assignment. It's a constant skill. So there were classes available and I made the case of, hey, I'd like the company to pay for it. And so I went in with a plan to say, these are the skills I need to do my job better. Would you cover it? And in that case, those were covered. 

There are other things, like assessments, like Myers-Briggs, or StrengthsFinder or DiSC. I think those are truly helpful to see where you fit into that bigger picture. If you're being asked to do a job that requires influence and you're a driver, those two skills are not a match. You're not-- it's going to be very difficult to be successful in a job where you need to influence others, like in a sales role, than whether you're a CEO type role or chief of staff type role, where you're driving to get something done and you need to figure it out. So I think that any and all of those tools and resources you should avail yourself of. 

Jill Finlayson: That's really interesting because if you know what you're good at, this gives you a little bit more control in a situation that you have no control over. You're in a performance improvement plan. But if you can go in with a strategy, if you can go in with, here's what I'm good at. How might we utilize the skills that I'm better at? That's hard to do when somebody's saying you're not good, you're not good at your job, you're not delivering. But I like that ownership of it, going into this. So you're already in the PIP. What are the things you can do during the PIP to ensure whether you decide you want to stay there or not? What should you be doing during the PIP? 

Sonya Sigler: There's the letter of the page. So there's the word that's written down on the page of the PIP. So you kind of have to play the game for what you're being expected to do. So if it says you need to do a weekly report every Friday that tells me everything you've done this week, then you're going to have to do the report every Friday and tell them what you've done that week. 

Jill Finlayson: Even if you don't want to. 

Sonya Sigler: Even if you don't want to. Yeah, you kind of have to play the game. And don't mean to pay lip service to doing that. This helps you suss out whether it's really about finding a fit for you or whether it's trying to push you out the door. So this is another way to help discover that, if you will. So the other thing that playing the game gives you is it helps you bide your time if you're going to go find a different job. And I mean this two ways, find a different job in the same company, or find a different job outside of the company. 

Playing the game and doing what's asked is going to help you do that more smoothly because you don't want to just be laid off, which happened to me as well, because then it's not your choice. And that's a whole different set of emotions. But if you are given the chance to improve, I think take the chance to improve, and at the same time, if you're getting the message of this is not going to work, like this company is not for me. It's not a match in values. It's not a match for my skills. I just need to find something else. Then use it as an opportunity to foster the relationships that you have, at the same time, looking for a better fit. 

Jill Finlayson: Let's talk about the end game. So you have completed your PIP. What then? 

Sonya Sigler: At that point in time, you're either going to be doing the same job, you will have talked yourself into a different job, or you will have left. So let's say you've successfully come off your PIP in your same position. You still have to fix the problems that got you there. So if it was a communication issue, you got to be vigilant about that. If it was an expectation setting issue, you got to be vigilant about that. If it was a fit, then you got to be vigilant about building the skills that keep it a fit or move to a role that is a better fit. So I think all of those things still come into play. 

Jill Finlayson: What if you do want to leave? You want to go to another job. You want to find a job that's a better fit for you. But you're very worried that you're not going to get a letter of recommendation because you've been on a PIP. 

Sonya Sigler: I think at that point in time you have to focus on what you did well and ask for a reference that relate to those skills that you shined with or the work that you did well. And I think you're going to have to come up with some examples because you're going to have to set that path up for success with your boss and with whoever put you on the PIP because it's an opportunity to say, I do these things great. This was not a fit for me. If it required that repetitive work for me, then you could admit that.

Ask for a reference that relates to the strength. And you are going to have to admit that kind of weakness when you are in the interview process. So those kind of things will be sussed out there. 

But I also think this requires-- back to the self-advocacy thing-- it is going to require you to ask for that. And they may not be comfortable with that. You may have to just say, name, rank, serial number, or give the dates of employment, and don't say anything else. But I really would like a reference that's positive related to these two skills. And so you have to put it out there. 

Jill Finlayson: I would add that there are people that you work well with, and there are other people that you can go to references for. It doesn't always have to be your boss, so thinking about that 360 of other people that you've maybe been effective at collaborating with because oftentimes, maybe there's one person you don't want to ask for that recommendation. But there might be several other people who are colleagues or people who reported to you, as opposed to your supervisor. Do you think those would be effective alternatives? 

Sonya Sigler: I do think they're effective alternatives, to be able to ask someone who reported to you of how were they as a boss or how were they at managing a team. That information can be valuable. I also think that people that you worked with-- I worked with a couple other teams as a lawyer supporting those teams than I ever did with my own boss because it was more of a legal had to report somewhere. But the work actually happened with teams, more like collaborations, as opposed to reporting to. And so those collaborations can be much more illustrative of your skills. 

Jill Finlayson: And that kind of leads me to my next question, which is this experience takes a toll. What does recovery look like? And what does it take to feel good again? How long does it take to feel OK? 

Sonya Sigler: I think that's going to depend on the person and how much a surprise it was. The more of a surprise, the harder hit it's going to feel, and the harder it is to recover. And I also think, did you have a high level of self-confidence before this? It's going to be easier to get back to that than it is if you didn't have a high level of confidence in the first place. So assessments will help with that. Skills inventory will help with that, to really understand what your superpowers are, really understanding what your career skills that you've gained over time. So it's a little bit more than an inventory. It's really understanding what those superpowers are. 

And if you didn't have a career roadmap-- like I mentioned, the people that worked for me, I always wanted them to have a roadmap. I didn't want them to just bide their time doing something. I wanted them to have a roadmap in how the job they had fit into that and then what skills did we need to help them build. Let's say that you don't have that. I would say, use this as an opportunity to build that and put one together for yourself. 

And last, I think any of the things that you can do if there's an outplacement-- let's say you got laid off, or let's say they're going to lay you off-- ask for those kind of resources if they're available. Sometimes companies have outplacement firms on retainer, so they are available, even if you're not being laid off. Ask for those kind of resources. Also, communication at this point is really important. Surrounded yourself with supporters and people who see your brilliance because those are the people that are going to help you back to that level of confidence. And I think really understanding what your skills are and that you have been successful in the past and remembering that is a key to getting over the emotional wallop that a PIP can be. 

Jill Finlayson: Give me a couple of activities on how you can identify your superpower. Who can help you see yourself in a way that you can't see yourself? 

Sonya Sigler: I think that one of the things I wrote about in my first book, Welcome to the Next Level, is doing an exercise called Every Job. And when I got laid off from my first job, they gave us outplacement services. And I never availed myself of them. But I kept the materials. And then when I could actually read them and digest them, when I wasn't so emotionally distraught, then I could actually see how helpful they were. So this Every Job exercise is a riff on one of the things I learned in that process. And it's basically write down every job you've ever had, from the minute you made a dime, whether it's babysitting, or delivering newspapers, or mowing your neighbor's lawn till now. 

And you'll be able to see themes and things that are attractive and things that are a no-go throughout your career. And I worked with some high schoolers and some college students, and this goes for you, too. It's not just 30 years into your career. It is any kind of activity, so volunteer activity or leadership activity on a sports team, for example. What did you like about it? What did you not like about it? What did you learn? What did you really look forward to. All of those kind of questions can give you clues as to what is going to be a fit for you. 

Jill Finlayson: So really taking this time to understand where you shine, where you struggle, and trying to find the job or the role that has more emphasis on the things that you're good at. How do you look at job descriptions now, when you're looking at them to see if they would be a fit? 

Sonya Sigler: That is so tough because you can read a job description and say, wow, this looks amazing. This looks like a great fit for what I have. And then you talk to them, and it's like it's a completely different role. So you kind of have to read between the lines for job descriptions. And also I'm of the mind apply for it, find out more information. Don't count yourself out when you don't know enough information. I figured job descriptions are someone's view as to what the position may be. It may not be actually what's true on a day-to-day basis. 

Jill Finlayson: So you've been, of course, on both sides of this fence. I believe you've had to, as you said earlier, coach people out of their role. Can you speak from the employer side on what are the alternatives to doing a PIP? How can you help your employees find fit? 

Sonya Sigler: My philosophy is it's better to use the people you have working for you now than it is to go out and recruit someone else. It's much more expensive and time consuming to do that recruiting. So how can I make this person successful where they are? If that's not possible, then I'm going to ask more questions of, are you happy in your job? Is this really working out for you? And if not, then let's have an honest conversation of what do you think would be better? Do you need a month to find another job? Do you need to take some time off? Do you-- I think there are more humane ways to go about it than putting someone on a PIP that doesn't make sense. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, if you're not committed to their success, why are you forcing them to go through these hoops? 

Sonya Sigler: Exactly. I was much more likely to counsel people out than to put anyone on a PIP. 

Jill Finlayson: So for the individual, they probably shouldn't just be waiting this out or waiting for something to happen to them. What is your advice for an individual who's maybe feeling stuck in their job or aren't advancing as they would like to see or aren't getting the recognition that they would like to see? 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah, I think it's really important to take personal responsibility because no one is going to manage your career for you. You are the one that has control over it. You know yourself best. And if you don't know yourself, there are assessment tools out there that can help you dig deeper, even just being reflective on what I like about this job and don't like about this job, that every job exercise I mentioned, can help illuminate what you like. I think also, what projects do you gravitate towards? What kind of people do you gravitate towards? What kind of projects really light you up? What kind of projects make you go, ugh, I don't want to do that today? Because both of those will give you clues on what works for you. And if it's not working out, then take responsibility and go find something that is a better fit because I think people want people who want to be there working for them. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, and it'll take some time to find another thing. And so if you're just going to wait until things get really bad and then you start looking, you're going to be frustrated by the length of time it takes to find a better fitting job. 

Sonya Sigler: And I think it's always easier to come from a position of power when you have a job, looking for a job, rather than being unemployed, looking for a job. That desperation can seep in and that I need money to pay rent or my mortgage. That mindset can really seep into your approach, whereas if you're taking personal responsibility and ownership of it and you're controlling the timeline, that gives you more power to assess the situation and find a better fit. I see people taking jobs-- I just need a job-- that's not a fit. 

And frankly, when I took the job at Intuit, that's the position I was in. I really wanted to move to the business side, and I took another job in the legal field. And so it was my version of just taking another job because I had a mortgage to pay. I didn't have any kids at the time, but that's why I took it. And it was just like, well, yeah, you can do the job. But it may not be the best fit. And so it just took me a little while to figure that out. So if you find yourself in that position, or you've been given that wake-up call of a PIP, even if you come off of it, it's still a wake up call for you to say, something didn't work. Don't let it go off the rails this far next time. Take control of it and do something about it while you can from a position of power. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, so two more specific questions about the individual. Oftentimes when you're not satisfied, you're very much focused on yourself. And that comes across to the employer. They notice that you're not thinking about the company and the organization. And then the other thing that can happen if things aren't going well, you become kind of risk averse. You don't want to take those stretch assignments. So what are some things you can do to coach yourself into a growth mindset? 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah, I think the opportunity to chat with your boss and with colleagues in terms of getting their feedback about your work in the context of really understanding how the work that you're doing fits into the bigger picture. So getting that feedback from other people, including your boss, including colleagues, or including people you work with, can be really helpful in that situation. 

I think the other part is when you take an active role in your career or in being successful in the role that you're in, people notice that. And so that's a way to work yourself out of the emotional distress, if you will, of being on a PIP, is like, wow, I really want to do a good job here. What needs to be done first? Or here's what I'm thinking needs to be done. Do you agree? So taking that active, proactive role can be important at that point in time. 

Jill Finlayson: Also, people have lives outside of the workplace. And I think one of your 360 activities where you're collecting that feedback about your performance is with people outside of work. And I remember one of my colleagues thought she wasn't a leader. And everyone around her saw her as a leader. So you don't necessarily have a good mirror to hold up to yourself if you're just trying to assess on your own. 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah, I think that level of self-awareness, it's a spectrum. And you want to be where you can be self-aware enough to gather this information yourself. Or if you realize you're not, then you do need to seek out others' opinion and feedback. I have an adjective exercise that I use too. And I just turned it into a Google survey or a Google form or whatever, and I just sent it to-- I don't know. I sent it to 15 people, and I asked for their feedback. Some people do it anonymously. Some people do it with their name on it. And some people add information. It's very simple. It has two questions. Which of these adjectives would apply to me? And then is there anything that's not on this list that you think applies to me? Then I gave that to people. 

And one of the words that came back was collaborative. And I mentioned, I'm a driver, and I like to get stuff done. And I'm like chief of staff mentality. And I leave people in my wake because I didn't take the emotional effects into consideration. And so I was very surprised to see the word collaboration on there. And when I asked a couple people about it who put their names on the survey, they said, you asked my opinion, and you care deeply about the answer. And so I feel like you collaborate with me, even if you don't do what I suggested. 

And so I was like, OK. So it's in the message. And it's in how you ask, as opposed to just the end result. And so sometimes I'm so focused on the end result, I forget about the process to get there. So that was information for me that I was doing some of that work, but not everywhere. So I thought it was super helpful. 

Jill Finlayson: So this is November. It's Thanksgiving. This is a big time for gratitude. How can you have gratitude when you're feeling stuck or you're on a PIP? How do you contextualize this with your life? 

Sonya Sigler: I think it's really important to be grateful for the feedback that you receive. It's information. It's a piece of information. It's not everything. But it is a piece of information that can be helpful. And then I think, be grateful for the opportunity to make a change and to take control, as opposed to having it imposed on you. So I would say that even if you are put on a PIP, look at it that way, in terms of it's an opportunity to get feedback, and it's an opportunity for you to take better control of the situation. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, it's the opportunity to pivot, maybe to pivot something more aligned with your interests and skills. It's an opportunity to close one door and open a new door. Even if it's not the perfect new door, it's kind of a new pathway. And I always say change good. And I know a lot of people say change bad. I'm very much a fan of change good and putting yourself in a situation where you're going to have an opportunity to learn new things, be perceived in a new way by a new group of people. And I do see that PIP as being a catalyst, almost, to say, hey, you're settling. You're settling for something that isn't right for you. 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah think it was the George Clooney movie, Up in the Air, where he was a person who had to come in and do layoffs. And one of the guys is like, I really want to be a chef. And then he went on to do that, as opposed to working in the factory or whatever it he was doing, went on to do the job of his dreams. And I would say use that as an opportunity to do that for yourself because the last job I got laid off from was 10 years ago. And I used that as an opportunity to move to consulting and coaching. And so that's what I've been doing for the last 10 years. And so that layoff, while it stung at the time, really made a difference and pushed me to find a better fit in terms of what I wanted to do for myself and the people that I wanted to help. 

Jill Finlayson: So what are your final words of advice for self-care thriving inside and outside the office? 

Sonya Sigler: Yeah, I think know yourself. So being able to thrive, whether it's in the career that you're in or on the one that you're about to be in, because you've been put on a PIP, and now you're going to be leaving, or you got laid off, or fired, know yourself and what it takes for you to thrive, whether it's in the job or whether it's outside the job, outside the office, because you only have one life. Use it well. 

Jill Finlayson: And did your PIP lead to something better? Did you go on to something better? 

Sonya Sigler: The one and only PIP I was on, yes. It gave me information to build better relationships. And so one of the pieces and the change that I made for good in that was to build better relationships, set expectations better, and communicate more clearly and more often. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Sonya. It's been super enlightening to open the door on this conversation that nobody wants to talk about. 

Sonya Sigler: It's an important topic. And I'm so glad you asked me to come on and talk about it today. 

Jill Finlayson: Thanks so much. And with that, I hope you enjoyed this latest in a long series of podcasts that we'll be sending your way each month. Please share with friends and colleagues who may be interested in taking this Future of Work journey with us. And make sure to check out extension.berkeley.edu to find a variety of courses to help you thrive in this new working landscape. 

And to see what's coming up at EDGE in Tech, go ahead and visit edge.berkeley.edu. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back next month to continue our journey on the Future of Work. The Future of Work podcast is hosted by Jill Finlayson, produced by Sarah Benzuly, and edited by Matt Dipietro. 
 

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