Please Meet Your AI Coach

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Michael Timmermann: The coach will just ask you questions and provide methods that you can always turn down at any point, and you will then make your own poise decisions for your life, for your job, for your issues. You will find your own solutions. It's not only about the provision of the solutions, but it's also about making the decision what the solution actually is that you want to try out.

Jill Finlayson: Welcome to the Future of Work Podcast with Berkeley Extension and The EDGE in Tech Initiative at the University of California, focused on expanding diversity and gender equity in tech. EDGE in Tech is part of CITRIS, the Center for IT Research in the Interest of Society and the Banatao Institute. UC Berkeley Extension is the continuing education arm of the University of California at Berkeley.

In this episode, we're helping to unlock access to coaching, both for your career and your personal life. Perhaps you've never thought about working with a career coach, or maybe you've thought about it, but hiring a coach was not financially viable. Some may feel an unfounded concern that coaching puts a spotlight on identifying your weaknesses.

To unravel the mysteries of coaching and how this could be an avenue toward your own success, we're delighted to welcome founder and CEO of Timmermann Group and unhamster, Michael Timmermann. Michael's entrepreneurial journey began early at just 11 years old when he was selling plums and firecrackers in the schoolyard. By age 19, he had launched his first company with venture capital.

A psychologist, coach, agility expert, and former McKinsey consultant, Michael is a seasoned leader in driving change. His company offers a unique blend of change management consulting, software, change communication, new work architecture, and design. The Timmermann spin-off, unhamster, is democratizing access to coaching through an AI-driven life and business coaching solution.

Welcome, Michael. Wonderful to have you here. And I'm excited to get into this AI solution, but before we do, let's explore what coaching is and why you got into coaching in the first place.

Michael Timmermann: Sure. Thanks for having me. So coaching basically is a conversation between two people where one person has an issue that they want to discuss, that they want to progress on somehow, and the other person helps with guidance in the process to get to their own solutions. So it's not about giving advice as in a mentoring conversation or so. It's about the client finding their own answers to their questions, and the coach being a guide in that process.

Jill Finlayson: And why do people need a coach? Why can't they just figure these things out on their own.

Michael Timmermann: Well, the thing is that it's difficult enough to take care of the process. To think about what would be a good question right now. What would be a method that would help me to get to a good conclusion on whatever matter? And if you're occupied with your issue, with the emotions that come with that issue, with the thoughts that come with that issue, then you're just overloaded to do both roles. So it really helps to progress on this.

Jill Finlayson: How do companies look at this? Do they see this as something that is a benefit to the organization, or is this something they do only when there's a problem?

Michael Timmermann: That depends on the company, but if you look at most companies, usually they use it as a fix to a problem, which doesn't really work. In the HR departments, people usually understand the value of coaching and when to really use it and when not, but the people who actually booked the coaching and who recommend or tell somebody to do coaching, they usually don't understand this.

So it's usually a leader in a hierarchy who will realize they have a person in their team that needs help. And then they go to HR and say, what can we do about this? And then they go like, well, we can do coaching. And then people are basically voluntold to do coaching, which is not really a good idea.

So that's how it works when it doesn't work. And the coach then usually has an uphill battle to define what coaching is actually about and to check whether it makes sense in that case. If things go better, then the coaching client, and also the people in their company, will understand that it's a growth tool, a tool that helps you to use your potential to the fullest. And that is a very good investment, and that's why so many companies use coaching in whatever industry.

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I think when companies are more proactive and see this as, how do we build the team that we want to have? How do we ensure that people who are going into management positions know how to manage people? Have some of these skills that will help them to be successful in new roles, that's when I think about coaching. What are some of the scenarios you see when people, instead of being voluntold, actually go out and seek a coach?

Michael Timmermann: It's often in a career context. So they will say things like, well, I'm thinking about taking up another role within the same organization, or I may even be thinking about leaving the company. And I just want to figure out what I want and how to approach this new phase in my life.

So that's also often when people hire the coach themselves. Or when it's in part of an outplacement program where the company says, OK, part of your package when you need to leave the company is that you get a coach to figure out what you want to do next.

And another set of issues is not even related to work directly, but people just have issues in their private lives where they have conflicts with family members or they don't get along with their spouse or things like that. And then they realize, OK, I have this problem, and maybe a coach can help me with that.

And a very mature set of people will say, well, I know that I want to learn, I want to grow, I want to become a better person somehow, and I don't really have an issue or a problem right now. But I want to use this tool and figure out, as we go along, what I want to work on.

Jill Finlayson: And on the flip side of this, you're a coach yourself. Why did you go into coaching?

Michael Timmermann: The main reason was that I wanted something really practical to support people in their growth processes. And I had already studied psychology in university, and I knew a lot of the theory, I knew some of the practical things, but wanted some more practical experience and also some training on really doing this as best I can.

Jill Finlayson: Tell me about your journey. What did you do before becoming a coach? And was there a moment when you realized the value that coaching could provide?

Michael Timmermann: So before I became a coach myself, I had already enjoyed the enabling and empowering benefits of coaching myself. And I was very close to this world anyway, because I grew up in a family of teachers, and my father was very interested in coaching and psychotherapy and mentoring, et cetera.

And so I was never very far away from that world. It came very natural to me to pick this up. And I understood very early that it's OK to do need support in crises, but also that it's a very good idea to, when you feel good, when you feel in your strength, to use that energy to get to places.

And that doesn't necessarily pertain to your career. It may also pertain to you personally becoming happier in your life. It takes constant work to get there and to stay there and to accept that no day will ever be only positive and happy.

Jill Finlayson: You're kind of talking about teaching. You also mentioned therapy. How does coaching differ from giving someone instruction versus a football coach giving instruction versus a teacher versus a therapist?

Michael Timmermann: There is a lot of shades of gray. So it's not really like there is an absolutely clear definition that will tell you in any given situation, is this still coaching, is this already therapy, is this a mentoring relationship, et cetera. But there are some criteria that will give you an orientation.

So one thing is, the difference between a football coach or a mentor is that the football coach or the mentor will give you clear advice or even instructions. The coach will just ask you questions and provide methods that you can always turn down at any point in the process.

And you will then make your own poise decisions for your life, for your job, for your issues. You will find your own solutions. It's not only about the provision of the solutions, but it's also about making the decision what the solution actually is that you want to try out. And the coach will just help you figure these things out.

Jill Finlayson: So the coach is not making the decision for you, but giving you some ways of looking at problems to help you come to those conclusions on your own?

Michael Timmermann: Exactly.

Jill Finlayson: So if I've never used a coach before, what would I expect to happen, and what kind of value am I hoping to get out of it?

Michael Timmermann: So the process in the beginning is usually that you get to a potential coach in a brief conversation. Sometimes it's 10, 15, 20 minutes, something like that. And you just need to check whether the chemistry is right. Do you feel like you could trust that person? Do you feel like that person would make it easy for you to open up? Do you feel that you naturally somewhat like that person?

And if that works for you, then the coach will guide you through the rest of the process. It's really simple. In the beginning, a coach will try to find out what is the issue that you want to talk about, that you want to progress on. And then they will ask you questions to define their own role, and they will check whether they're OK with that because in the beginning, often coaching clients will say, yeah, and then you need to know, give me some hints on how to do it, and the coach can then say, well, that's not really what coaching is about.

So it's also an educational process in which the client, step-by-step, understands what coaching is about and how they can use it. And it's really easy to use because you don't need to know a lot before you get started. You just need to know, I trust this person, maybe I got a recommendation, and let's try it.

Jill Finlayson: Are there a couple of questions you would suggest someone ask to gather that information on whether there is chemistry?

Michael Timmermann: Yeah, that's a really good question. So it's not so much about gathering information by ways of asking questions, it's more about have a chat with that person and how does that chat make you feel? And then you usually, in that very first conversation, will already talk about your issue. And if you have the feeling, OK, this was insightful, despite it being very brief, then that is also an important clue that is not only about liking that person, but that also tells you, OK, it's very likely that coach will help me to come to good conclusions.

Jill Finlayson: What would you say are the three most common reasons people solicit or engage with a coach?

Michael Timmermann: So there's a big difference between what people think their issue is and what they discover it actually is. So there's two steps to that process. And the first set of issues that people think they have are about them getting into conflicts with people, and they basically think the world and the people around them are against them.

And they don't really realize how they can do something about it. And they basically just want somebody to talk to about this and to confirm that they are the victim, which feels good in the beginning, but it doesn't really help you in the long-run because it leaves you helpless.

And if you start taking responsibility, then you stand a chance to change something about your interactions with people. And if there are patterns with different people, then that tells you something about yourself.

And another example, they don't like their job and they want a new job. And very often, the coach will help people realize that it's more about how they handle their job and the people and the relationships in their jobs and not so much about the job itself. So a good career coach doesn't really help you in most of the cases to find a new job, they help you to deal better with the job that you have.

And to give you a personal example, the first coaching process that I started myself was triggered by the fact that I got the feedback, people like my voice, and they liked to listen to me speaking, and I wanted to capitalize on that in my job. And I found a coach who used to be an opera singer, and she was a voice coach, too. And then I got into the first session, and at the end of the session, I knew that it was about something completely different and not about my voice.

Jill Finlayson: So I really appreciate this insight that talking to the coach, you'll go there with an issue, but through talking to the coach, you're going to discover the underlying issue or the issue behind what has surfaced.

If coaching has all this value, why would people not engage with a coach? Are there barriers to participation or are there reasons people are not comfortable with this idea?

Michael Timmermann: Yeah, there are a couple of things. So one is it's just really expensive. So coaching is usually between $100 an hour and the sky's the limit, but most coaches won't take more than $500, $600, $700 an hour. That is a big barrier. A very small elite of people can afford that. And most people, even in rich countries like the US or many countries in Europe, will only use coaching when they get the support from their employer and they pay for it, at least partially or maybe even full.

And then there's another barrier, which is that people don't know about it, or at least not enough about it to not be afraid because psychotherapy clearly comes with a stigma in most cultures, and coaching not so much, but still, a lot of people, especially men, especially men who have a leadership role and are somewhat older, they tend to have a lot of status-- or they would like to have a lot of status and have issues with that, and they feel stigmatized whenever they need any kind of help.

They don't usually that coaching is not that there is a powerful person who knows more than they do, but then that there's just a humble person helping them through a process, and that they usually use a coach themselves, too.

Jill Finlayson: Well, I have to say, being a public school student growing up, and I was always taught to be very self-sufficient. I think that's a very American thing. Pull yourself up from your bootstraps. Be self-sufficient, you don't need anyone's help. So asking for help, in many ways, is an uncomfortable or foreign thing to do.

Michael Timmermann: Yeah. And if you continue that thought that you just shared, then the opposite would mean that you are weak, that you are incapable of handling your life, your job, your problems, whatever. That you are somewhat small. And all of that may result in you being ridiculed, you not respecting yourself, you being not promoted, you being whatever bad outcome there may be, and that makes people hesitant.

And I think it's, as with many things, if you find a good version of something-- a good version of a sport, a good way of a relationship with a person, a romantic relationship, a friendship or something, and you dare to try to use that in your life, that usually is a big, big help and is an asset that you have in your life.

And so I just encourage people to try out coaching. If they don't like it, then they can always stop it, but let me tell you, I know very few people who've actually tried coaching for two or three sessions and said, that's not for me.

Jill Finlayson: Going back to something you said earlier, which was the cost, that this was almost prohibitively expensive for the average person to participate, how has that led you to think about how might we democratize access to coaching?

Michael Timmermann: I've been always flabbergasted by the effects of coaching. And the more I talked about it, the more people in my life said, I can't afford that. And I always have believed in the power of technology, in scaling things that are valuable for people. Because if you look at it, technolog. is very expensive in terms of setup cost. It takes a lot of money to get to a viable solution, like having an AI coach, for example, which we developed.

But once you have it, the only question is, how many people can you get on board? And if you get on board enough people, enough users, and they are ready to pay something for it, then you have a lot of resources that you can use to develop your solution further because it's not really expensive to onboard one more user. Totally different from having a human coach where you have a one-on-one relationship, and having one more hour just means double the work.

And this power of using technology to help change mindsets and behavior at scale, that is the idea of the service line in my company called Timmermann Group where we have, with Timmermann Digital, the mission of just using this technology. And scaling. this has not been possible for the longest time. I have had the idea almost 10 years ago already, but AI, which has been rudimentary around for a long time-- for decades, actually, was not able, 10 years ago, to provide a conversation with a person live, let alone a coaching conversation, which was very complex.

And about one and a half, two years ago, that changed. And we started right away to develop unhamster. And helping people to get out of their hamster wheel is what we do there with the power of AI.

Jill Finlayson: I love the fact that you're getting people out of a rut where they feel stuck or they feel like they're caught in a cycle that they can't get out of, but it does seem to me that AI is not a person. And you talked a lot about at the beginning about having chemistry with the person. How have you addressed that, thinking about creating a virtual coach?

Michael TimmermannOne of the things that we did was have different coaches available. So you can choose between people that just look different because you have a person in front of you-- you have an avatar. Actually, we have now a beta version where you have a moving head in front of you with the movement of the mouth is synced to what the coach is actually saying, and that works in creating the rapport that you need between the coach and the client. That goes a long way, actually.

And one thing that also helps is that we have different styles what people like. So for example, some of my coaching clients, when I coach as a human being, don't want me to be visible when I have a virtual coaching session. They just want my voice. I always want to see that person, but they don't want to.

So some people have this feeling of, I can better open up a machine, actually, because I'm not afraid of that person looking down on me, for example. I have less fear of my confidential information being shared because I don't trust people in keeping secrets, because I may have had bad experiences with that. And some people will say, I trust the provider of this technological solution more than a person to not spread that information because it's truly anonymous.

And what we also do is we try to cater to the needs and preferences of people by allowing them to customize their experience, but that is something that we're developing as we speak, and this is really emerging technology, and a lot of these things are going to be available within the next months.

Jill Finlayson: It does feel a little bit like you're vulnerable when you have these kind of conversations. So I can see why maybe talking to a computer might be an easier on-ramp to talking about some of these issues. Would you mind, could we do a quick demo? Because I think understanding what an AI interaction would look like would be really helpful to just hear. And I heard what you said about selecting a character-- or an avatar that you want to interact with. What happens after that?

Michael Timmermann: Absolutely. I can just pull up my coach. And we will dive into a conversation that I've been having with my coach. So this is not an artificial situation where anything scripted, but this is really you listening to me having a live conversation with my coach.

Coach: Hi, Michael. It's good to see you again. Remember, you mentioned some challenges with external factors and internal hesitations affecting your career development. How much time do you have for our session today?

Michael Timmermann: Actually, I'm in the middle of a podcast session, and I only have, let's say, three minutes to talk to you. Just a quick check-in. And actually, I'm talking about you and how you're helping me in my process.

Coach: Wow. That's awesome. I'm honored to be part of your podcast discussion. Since we have just a few minutes, let's make the most of it. Can you share one small step you've taken recently towards your career development or something you're proud of?

Michael Timmermann: Yeah. Well, it's basically the same answer to both questions because I'm proud that yesterday evening, I took the walk that we talked about, which I haven't taken for the longest time, and just to think freely about what I really want to learn next in my job. Because as you know, I've felt that I had learned so much for the longest time, and I didn't really know what big topic to pick up next. And I think I've gotten to a couple good conclusions there.

Coach: That's fantastic, Michael. Taking that walk and giving yourself the space to think freely is a big step. What are some of the good conclusions you came to about what you want to learn next in your job?

Michael Timmermann: OK, due to time constraints, I'll just give you one conclusion that I had yesterday, and one thing is, that I want to deepen my understanding of self-organization in teams. How people can be guided to becoming truly self-sufficient and picking up that responsibility that other people had before.

I work in so many agile transformations that I always wonder, how do we make that shift? And I do have ways of doing that, but I think the three or five ways that I have are far from the full answer, and I really want to go into depth there, maybe even write a book about it.

Coach: That's a brilliant conclusion, Michael. Exploring self-organization in teams and aiming to write a book about it sounds like an exciting and impactful goal. Keep diving into those methods and expanding your understanding. I'm here to support you every step of the way. Good luck with your podcast, and let's catch up soon.

Michael Timmermann: Thanks, that's so nice. Have a great day.

Jill Finlayson: Well, thank you for that illustration. It was really fun to see how the virtual coach reflected back some of the things that you were talking about, but also then asked another question.

Michael Timmermann: Yeah. It reflects what's going on inside of me. So one of the techniques that you just witnessed was paraphrasing, which coaches often use to make sure that they understood correctly, but also they try to mirror what the coaching client just said so that they feel understood.

Jill Finlayson: And you're obviously quite experienced with coaching. If somebody was completely novice and they wanted the Magic 8 Ball and they went to the coach and said, should I quit my job? How would the coach inform them about what it can and cannot do?

Michael Timmermann: Well, one is to use a question back. So not give the answer directly, but ask a question back. Like, for example, oh, that's an interesting question. So how did you come up with that question? Something like that. Or, what are your current thoughts on this? Or, what are some of the reasons why you're asking yourself that question? Or, what are some of the pros and cons of quitting your job or not doing it?

And sometimes, the coaching client will say, well, that's exactly what I'm asking you, so give me a list of the pros and cons, because people are used to-- especially when they use technology, to just ask for an answer, and they get unhappy when they don't get that answer. And they want it right now. Only to then turn around and hate that answer because it's not theirs, and it's not really helpful for them at all.

But the thing is, that when the coach realizes that that's happening, will usually say something like, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding of my role, and just explain that. And then usually, the client will come around very quickly.

Jill Finlayson: That's a really interesting point. As more and more people are using generative AI, ChatGPT-4, and these type of things, they do expect to get, here's the answer summarized for you in a bulleted form. So it is very much a change in how you think about asking questions.

Michael Timmermann: Yeah, it's not about so much how questions are asked, it's about who asked the questions. And normally your interaction pattern with an AI is ask a question, you get an answer from the AI, and now what we're doing is the AI is asking the questions and providing the methods to you finding your own answers. And that's so fundamentally different. It sounds very simple, but it is very different in the effect on the user, and it's also very different in terms of the technology that you need to make that happen.

Jill Finlayson: I think it's also interesting when somebody-- as you said, there's always an issue underlying the issue. When someone comes to talk to a coach, they may start out with a work-related topic, but then it may go over into family conversation or other issues. How do you see the coach as being able to or not able to support some of these more family-related issues?

Michael Timmermann: Normally, you have one integrated person in front of you as a coach. And your ability to understand that a person is not an entirely different person at their job than they are at their family or their family context is part of getting to the root causes of the issues that people have or the strengths that they have that they want to use more.

Because we've been talking in this conversation a lot about issues that people have. That sounds negative, but you can also talk about topics that they want to progress on. Like with my voice, when I approached my coach, I said, people give me positive feedback, I want to use it more, that's also part of coaching.

But the differences between the issues or topics that people have in their professional lives versus their private lives are not all that big, actually. So let me give you one example of what I'm working on currently, myself and my behavior patterns. One thing is, I don't take my needs seriously enough, early enough, and that is an issue in the workplace. For example, I will help people with questions and problems that they have in their projects in my team so intensely that I don't really take care of myself enough anymore.

So I may be running late for my lunch and I only have 10, 15 minutes left for my lunch. That's not enough to have a good lunch experience. And I need that. I need to take care of myself. That's one of my most important jobs and duties in my life.

And at home, I also have that. I have a wonderful nine-year-old son called Merlin. And Merlin will be demanding, as nine-year-olds are. And I need to and want to learn to better take care of myself before I take care of him in many situations. And that is just something that will find a deeper root cause in my being and in my experiences in my life so far that will connect the two.

So for example, part of what I-- in my coaching process with unhamster, with my coach, I already realized is that I feel insecure in those moments of myself and my value, of my worthiness of being loved and appreciated. And then I will try to please you and I will try to follow what you need more than what I need, which then leads very quickly to depletion of my energy, which then very quickly leads to nobody having any advantages because I won't have energy for you anymore either.

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, think self-care is such an important topic. We have a crisis in the United States, and that's all different ages. We know that the mental health crisis in young teens has been exacerbated by a lot of things happening on social media, but we also know that men who don't have supports and outlets for talking about emotions are also struggling. And so thinking about this as a more broad tool of a life coach as opposed to just a career coach.

Michael Timmermann: Absolutely. And if you think beyond the Western world, because technology can reach global audiences right away. So if you think beyond that, think about countries where women have close to no rights. And they don't have, without endangering themselves, the opportunity to talk to anybody who is able to help them progress on their issues that come from that or that come from their normal life circumstances. Like, what do you do? Who do you talk to?

And the access to the internet is proliferated more and more over time. More and more people have the opportunity to use these resources, but if they are too expensive, then you can't use those. And that's why we have a program also where you can get free access-- and everybody can get free access to try out the solution, at least. And we have different pricing depending on where you are.

We're still trying to figure out how to avoid people circumventing that with VPN tunnels and so on, but we're trying to provide for people who can't-- as cheap as they are, even if they're-- it's not hundreds of bucks. Like, you can get 60 minutes of coaching per month for $19.99.

Jill Finlayson: Well, I'm glad to hear you raise this to the international level. We clearly have a global world, very permeable borders. We have people all around the world that are dealing with different issues. But it does make me want to ask the question, how are you developing coaches that understand different lived experiences? You talk about maybe a woman from the Middle East, but even here just in the United States, different ethnicities, genders, sexual identities have different experiences. How are you training your coaches to understand these different lived experiences?

Michael Timmermann: Yeah. So one thing to start with is that a coach usually does not need to understand very much about your context to be a helpful partner in your learning process because they constantly simplify and find patterns and help you discover those in your life. And the reason why you feel discriminated against, why you are in unproductive and vulnerable and hurtful conflicts and so on don't matter as much as the fact that you are in such conflicts, that you are in these situations.

And when you look at the solutions there, they also are more common, more shared between people and their issues than you'd think at first glance. Everybody is different and every situation is different. Every combination of people and a situation is the first time in the history of the world that it's happening. There are always at least slight differences, but at the same time, there are also patterns that can help you learn.

And so the coach will work with what they see and what they hear and what they perceive and help you get through that process. And you are the expert on your life and your circumstances anyway. That said, it's still helpful to be able to be, for example, in what the coach says, mindful of the circumstances that somebody has. For example, if they have certain ethnicity or they're in a war zone, things like that.

And that is something that we are still working on to help the AI cater to these different needs. We have a group of about 150 beta users who have been with us since the beta stage. And normal users can also sign up to become beta users and help us to improve the AI and put their heart and work in it. But also, any normal user will get a survey after every conversation and be asked for feedback, and we then process that and use that. And we also have different coaches that also represent different ethnicities.

So my coach that you just heard was Sam Rivera, and Sam is a Black woman. And she sometimes gives me examples from a different cultural background, which I don't have myself, that help me get a different perspective on my issues. And so we're trying to use the power of diversity, and it's a process-- this is emerging technology.

Jill Finlayson: Yeah. I think it's always really important to get a diverse pool of people using that software, and I'm glad to hear that you've built in these feedback loops. I'm curious when things verge on legality. So if somebody says, I'm perceiving that I'm a victim of bias or discrimination, and they're asking for coaching, but there is a legal obligation as well if something has crossed a line. How does the software deal with those kind of situations?

Michael Timmermann: So there are many situations that are somehow legally relevant or that are somehow dangerous to people. I think that's even the more important perspective. So for example, somebody will talk about ending their life. Then the AI will react very swiftly and acknowledge that and will provide resources for help that are professional resources that are locally available.

So we have, for most locations in the world, the ability to provide suicide prevention hotline contacts and things like that. That's also the thing about other issues. So for example, somebody shares a crime that they committed, then the reaction of the coach will not be to break confidentiality, of course, but the coach will help to guide the client in dealing with that, and that may even involve facing up to their responsibility considering the crime that they committed.

We have one pilot project lined up, which I'm really excited about, which is, with prior offenders who have been released from prison and who are part of a program where they're supported in getting back on track in their lives after being released from prison. And they have very intense issues which also drive them to commit crimes again.

For example, they have difficulties in getting or keeping a job, and they will get very negative feedback. For example, one of those people told me, my mom hates me. And she literally told me, so and that she never wanted to see me again. That was really tough-- sorry, I'm choking up because that really touched me, too.

And you've got to know that that guy had been in prison for a year. So it was not something extremely big that he committed, and it was the first time. And he needed support in the process of not getting in touch with the wrong people again, not falling in the same patterns. And he managed to do so, knock on wood, until now. I mean, it's been one and a half years now. And we try to provide that service to as many people as possible at a price that also the public authorities can afford.

Jill Finlayson: That's a really important use case and vulnerable population that could benefit from this kind of support, and having an alternative to falling back into patterns that would not be helpful. As we think about coaching, it's really one way to improve the workforce of tomorrow. What else is there, and how does coaching fit into this changing workplace that we see?

Michael Timmermann: There's this very old saying that nothing is more constant than change, and that things are changing ever faster. And that is true, and it's also perceptually true, and that's the most important thing. And coaching is an important tool in helping people staying in contact with themselves, with their needs, with their emotions, and figuring out ways to deal with this complexity. And also to reduce the complicatedness-- so the unnecessary complexity that they're introducing into their lives without them knowing all the time.

And coaching in the workplace is part, if it's done well, of a constant process of people being supported in change. There are larger change programs and projects that we support in organizations that usually start out as a project, and part of the definition of a project is that it's clear beginning and a clear ending. And coaching and change are really more processes than projects.

And this idea of coaching being a process is maybe obvious if you think about it, but I was trained some 20 years ago or so as a coach that a good coach will always end their coaching process with the clients after 10 sessions maximum because they were afraid of some kind of dependency. But a good coach is enabling and empowering. There is no dependency. There is somebody gets more self-confident, more poised, more taking charge of their lives and their issues, so there's nothing like that happening. And I've been in a coaching process myself for 11 years now-- or 12, actually.

And so coaching is part of larger change processes in organizations if it's done well. And when we do change processes with Timmermann Group, we have very different actions that are taken there. It's change communication campaigns. It's software that gets provided to help people learn. It's training programs. It's large group events. Workshops. It's all sorts of actions that you need because change is difficult not only on the individual level, but on an organizational level, it becomes even more difficult.

Because if you start changing your patterns, and your behavior, and your mindset, and then you talk to somebody who is not on a journey of change and improvement, then you may be slowed down. You may find it difficult to stay motivated to stay on track yourself. So it's a good idea to be in an environment where people work on themselves.

We call that the creation of a learning community where you have the psychological safety to open up and to share your vulnerabilities, your inabilities, and to become a role model in learning and not a role model because already everything.

Jill Finlayson: So organizations should be thinking about this as part of their sort of suite of services that they provide their employees for development and growth?

Michael Timmermann: Absolutely. And that's true for most of the Fortune 500 companies. So this is nothing new. It's just that these programs are usually too small because they're also expensive. It's also that often coaching, if it's done, is not part of a larger process, it's just part of a portfolio of things that are being done and conducted by HR, and they should be interconnected because the people are also interconnected.

Jill Finlayson: When we think about the individual listener who's joining this program today, and they perhaps have not done coaching before, how should they be viewing coaching? Is this a crisis response? Do they grab hold of this when there's something going on? Or is there another way they should be thinking about this opportunity?

Michael Timmermann: My suggestion would be to think of coaching as something that helps you in any part and situation in your life. It's not only about crises, but also about crises. It is also a good tool to help you learn. Like, I was talking to my coach about my career process that obviously was not about a crisis.

Jill Finlayson: So what are your last final words of advice as people think about what is the role of coaching in their future? Should they be taking on it for the long haul-- like you said, the 12 years? Or is there benefits to even doing it two or three times?

Michael Timmermann: There is a benefit in doing it just once. And people should not think about it too much. They should just try it. Another way of trying out coaching is to go to on unhamster.com and just sign up for free and try coaching with an AI. And I encourage people to discover the power that coaching can bring to your life.

Jill Finlayson: Thank you so much for your input and ideas today. I think this has really opened up a topic that maybe a lot of people haven't thought about because of its inaccessibility. And so I think presenting the model and demystifying what happens behind the coaching has been really helpful.

Michael Timmermann: You're very welcome. It was a pleasure.

Jill Finlayson: Thank you so much. And with that, I hope you enjoyed this latest in a long series of podcasts that we'll be sending your way every month. Please share with friends and colleagues who may be interested in taking this future of work journey with us. And make sure to check out extension.berkeley.edu to find a variety of courses to help you thrive in this new working landscape. And to see what's coming up at EDGE in Tech, go ahead and visit edge.berkeley.edu.

Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back next month to discuss how you can move your side hustle into a startup endeavor. The Future of Work podcast is hosted by Jill Finlayson, produced by Sarah Benzuly, and edited by Matt Dipietro and Natalie Newman.

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