The Power of Stop

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Jordan Peace: I asked myself, what can I do next week that is important and no one else can do it? And to perpetually seek those things that are most important and then to go deliver on those things. Why do you think people get promoted? People at the top go, yeah, you chose the important thing, and you crushed it. You should probably be in charge of more important things. 

Jill Finlayson: Welcome to the Future of Work podcast with Berkeley Extension and EDGE in Tech at the University of California, focused on expanding diversity and gender equity in tech. EDGE in Tech is part of the Innovation Hub at CITRIS, the Center for IT Research in the Interest of Society, and the Banatao Institute. UC Berkeley Extension is the continuing education arm of the University of California at Berkeley. 

We live in a moment where speed is celebrated. Productivity is prized, and new tools, especially AI, promise to help us do more faster with less friction. But somewhere along the way, many of us have started acting like machines ourselves, optimizing every minute, competing with algorithms, and measuring our worth by output alone. In today's episode, we explore a different idea-- that stillness isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. It's a conscious choice to pause, assess, and reconnect with what actually matters.

When work is evolving faster than we can process, our mental health, our relationships, and our sense of purpose are in a need of TLC. So in this moment when productivity is prized, we look at moving from being a human doing to a human being. Let's explore how trust, wisdom, and building connections, which are uniquely human strengths, should define our roles and how companies need to foster cultures that prize being, not burnout. To guide this conversation, we welcome Jordan Peace, co-founder and CEO of Fringe, an employee experience platform that consolidates rewards, recognition, lifestyle benefits, well-being programs, life events, and gifting into a more single integrated tool. 

Fringe runs the engine that powers elite company culture, helping organizations care for their people in ways that actually matter, inside and outside of work. A husband and a father of five, a self-proclaimed ADHD entrepreneur, Jordan's work is rooted in his personal mission to convince the world that work is good. Life is short, and that relationships are the only real treasure worth pursuing. His upcoming book, Stop, challenges the modern addiction to speed, distraction, and hustle, inviting readers to rediscover stillness, joy, and what really makes life worth living. Welcome, Jordan. 

Jordan Peace: Thank you so much for having me, Jill. I'm excited to be here. 

Jill Finlayson: So you have been a startup founder. You know what it's like to be a busy executive and a father. 

Jordan Peace: I do. 

Jill Finlayson: If you look back to your earlier days, how did you approach work? And when did you start to feel like there was a problem? 

Jordan Peace: I think when we started this company, Fringe, which was 2018, I had just had my third child. And going from 2 to 3 and that whole zone defense thing that people like to say, that's a real thing. So that was happening, and the startup launched at the same time. And so I think it sent me into this hyperactive mode of there's always something to be done. There's always an emergency. There's always another diaper. There's always another email. There's always another investor. There's always a problem. The product is breaking. 

And so I think at that point in my career, I was just in panic mode all the time, just trying to go, go, go. And I ended up making a whole lot of mistakes-- luckily, none of them fatal to the business or to my marriage or to myself. But I made a lot of mistakes as I was moving way too fast. And to be honest, I think I was naive enough to think that that's what the job called for and that that's what people wanted from me. And I turned out that I was wrong in that assumption. 

Jill Finlayson: Was there a moment when you feel like it tipped over? 

Jordan Peace: Yeah, I think a couple things happened. The biggest one was, I think-- so we started with four founders, and over the course of time, we kind of figured out where everybody belonged and what everybody's role should be, not just their title, but their role. You know what I mean? Who do we turn to in situation A or B or C is defined? That really settled me, and it helped me understand that I'm actually not needed for everything. I'm actually not the best choice to do everything. 

There are strengths that I possess that if I lean into those, even though it feels like I'm doing less work than others, because living in your strengths actually feels kind of easy sometimes, which makes us anxious that we're not providing value because we're like, this is too fun. I can't be doing the right stuff. This doesn't feel like work. I think I was worried about that. And then when I started to settle in to my strengths and lean into them and allow myself to enjoy the work without feeling guilty about what I perceive to be a large workload on others, that's when I think it flipped for me, where I was like, oh, I've been overdoing this thing all along. I just needed to focus in and relax and live in the strengths that I've been given. 

Jill Finlayson: You don't have to be everything for everyone. 

Jordan Peace: No, I got some terrible advice early on when I first became a CEO. Somebody said should be able to do everybody's job. And I was like, whoa, that's a lot of pressure. And I'm not sure I have all the skills, and I don't think I can remember that much information. But I kind of tried to really understand what everyone was doing and the ins and outs of their job. And man, what a vain pursuit that ended up being. That actually comes off like you're trying to control or like you're looking over their shoulder, which was not actually my intention. That was bad advice. [INAUDIBLE] Up front. 

Jill Finlayson: Why has the to do list kind of become the driver, and why do we think these tick marks are important but also not enough? We're getting things done. Isn't that a good thing? 

Jordan Peace: That is a good thing. And not to go off on a tangent-- I promise I'll bring it back to your exact question. But you mentioned in the intro that I'm a self-proclaimed ADHD entrepreneur. So the ADHD thing is actually a big part of why I ended up writing this book, and how I came to discover some of the things that I've discovered in my life. 

So as a kid, I was apt to unfocus, check out, if you will, in class, not really notice that there was a homework assignment that was assigned or not remember that I left my jacket in the classroom, these classic things. And as a result, I was often the least productive kid in terms of who did the most things, who contributed the most to the group project, whatever. 

And I always felt a great deal of shame about that because I associated value with getting stuff done even as a kid, which I think is reflective of the culture that I grew up in, which in some ways that has completely unchanged from a generation ago. We're still really measuring ourselves and our children by outputs. I think we're very much doing that. And so point being, I saw that as a negative thing. And so I've always had this internal pressure that when I wake up in the morning and I've got a job and I've got responsibilities and I'm a father and I'm a husband, I need to perform. I need to accomplish. 

And so with my brain, that's actually very, very hard. I'm not the person to give a list of 10 things to do. Give me one thing today to go figure this out fully. That would be more my strength. But I never allowed myself to think that way or enjoy that. I have been in hypervigilant task mode for years. Just what is the next thing? Get it done. Get the dopamine hit, which I unfortunately don't get with my condition, sadly. 

But hypothetically, get that dopamine hit. Let it drive you towards the next thing and just accomplish, accomplish, accomplish. And then you get to talk about those accomplishments, or others point out those accomplishments. And then you feel validated and valuable and like you matter, and you're allowed to take up space. I think that's very much at the heart of our culture, is just oh, you matter? Prove it. And we don't really look at ourselves as intrinsically valuable, which is sad, and I think going to get harder. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, I think that is a challenge. It's what have you done for me lately. culture. So even the stuff that you got done is forgotten five minutes later. So how do people overcome that sort of mentality of constantly being in the task mode? As you say, there's always more to be done than can be done in the time that you have. So how are you helping people think about to do list? 

Jordan Peace: Two things-- one is, I think if people are convinced that there is such a thing as think fast part of your life and there's the think slow part of your life. And there are things that you can be better at and accomplish and get done when you are vigilant and active and caffeinated and thinking fast. And that's a skill, and it's good. But there's also this depth and wisdom and reflection and refinement of self and relationships and so forth that comes from thinking slow that we're so out of practice in that when I challenged first my co-founders, and then eventually the entire company, to take an hour out of their week and to put all their screens away and just consider one thing, I actually got pushback for, I think, over a year. 

Actually, I don't think people are going to like that. That kind of feels uncomfortable. How is that work? And I took that lesson as I think your idea is bad and more as a that kind of scares me. 

Jill Finlayson: So why does taking one hour out of your day away from screens scare people? 

Jordan Peace: I think they're hiding-- one of the side effects of hustle culture and task mode and all of that. And maybe people aren't even doing it on purpose at first. But I think we realize that the busier we are, the more we are accomplishing things, the less we're thinking slow, because thinking slow is where the feelings typically come out. That's where we begin to actually feel our life. And we might need to grieve something, or we might need to feel guilty about something. Or we might need to pursue reconciliation with somebody. 

And most of us don't even have the skill set for that anymore. So that's hard. It's just a lot of scary stuff there. And so I think it's we're avoiding it. Whether consciously or subconsciously, we're using our busyness to avoid that which might cause us pain. But the things that would cause us pain would also be the very things that would bring growth and eventually joy and peace and depth and wisdom and understanding. But you got to go through the pain to get there. So I think we're just a very pain-avoidant culture. There's just this like, yeah, I don't want to think about that. I'll just pull out my phone. 

Jill Finlayson: These back-to-back Zoom meetings that we have that we're like, I'm booked. I'm getting things done. I'm having meetings. How does that end up hurting productivity? 

Jordan Peace: There's no reflection time. I remember in the early days of our startup, this is one of the things that actually was so advantageous to nobody knowing who we are or no one wanting to talk to us is that we had very empty calendars. So we'd have a meeting. And even if I wasn't on the meeting, I'd be like standing off to the side, like watching the meeting, because every meeting was so important. 

We'd get off the call, and we'd talk about it after. We would debrief. And what that did was it allowed us to process the information that was shared, the nuance, the things we picked up on about the other people. And didn't they seem uncomfortable when you said that, or did you see the attitude change when that happened in the conversation? And so we actually extrapolated so much more out of the meeting because we weren't back to back to back to back. 

We were actually like reasoning our way through what is all that we can glean from this interaction that we just had. And what's our next best course of action? And let's make a plan now, and let's calendarize that plan now as opposed to I quickly took some notes in the margin while I was trying to perform in a meeting. And then they went somewhere, and then I opened a new document for the next meeting or a new note or whatever people's systems are. Or I recorded the thing in AI. And at some point in the future, I swear I'm going to go look at that transcript and do something about it. But that's a lot of coordination. That's a lot of missteps that can take place there with running your life that way. 

So I think a lot of stuff gets lost. I find myself having the same conversation four and five times because nobody actually took the time to go and make a plan from the meeting. They just sort of went to the next thing. I could go on and on actually about the lost productivity of this back-to-back culture. And we're even proud of it too. That's the other thing that kills me. We're so proud of it, aren't we? We're just oh, sorry, guys. I'm back to back all day. I got a hard stop at 4:30. I mean, we're just so proud of how busy we are. Look how important I am. People want to meet me. It's so silly. 

Jill Finlayson: This reminds me a little bit. Have you looked at the Eisenhower Matrix, that whole idea of having four squares? And so for those of you who aren't familiar, basically you've got what's important, but not urgent. You've got what's important and urgent. You've got urgent and not important and then not urgent and not important. And one of the funny parts about that is that the things in that square that's not important and not urgent lives on your do list. And it moves forward onto the next to do list. And it's like, no, no, those things just need to go away. 

Jordan Peace: Those are the things you do never. That's why. Because they're not important, and they're not urgent. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, to take over your point. Yeah, I mean obviously the thing we're talking about is that important not urgent space. We are just terrible at living there. I don't what it is. Most people can't even think on that matrix, I've noticed. Hey, I get that you feel compelled to do this thing, but for these reasons, do you find it important? And they'll say no, but I need to do it now. And I'm like, are you sure? Is it on fire? Was there a deadline that I didn't know about? Is someone's life going to fall apart if you don't respond?

There's a lot of calling people back to importance because they're lost in urgency, and they conflate urgency with importance. 

Jill Finlayson: That's a very good point to make is that conflating of urgent and important. And I think that we're seeing that even more now. So we've got artificial intelligence. It's generating a lot of output. So if it's generating output, how does our role change? 

Jordan Peace: I love that. And this is part of why I'm so passionate about this topic because people need to prepare themselves because work is actually going to go to that quadrant in the Eisenhower Matrix. It's actually going to forcibly. What's going to happen is the task, the workflows, all the things we're talking about now with Claude and this, that, and the other, the whole point of that is just to get all of the task out of the way. 

Well, what's left? What's left is the thinking. That's what's left. And when people talk about prompt engineering. Well, what's prompt engineering? Prompt engineering is thinking long and hard about exactly what it is that you want this machine to do and then delivering it to it-- delivering to the context, which limits all of the scope of knowledge that it has down to the skill set and the instruction set that you want. And all of that requires a great deal of planning and thinking to actually get it to be really good. 

And it's all thinking slow. It's all thinking strategy. Like it or not, I think those of us that just want to live in this dopamine mode, a task mode of check, check, check, check, check. I don't even think that's going to be an option someday for the vast majority of us. I think we're going to need to learn to be thinkers. And I would prefer we learn to be feelers too because then I think our thinking is deeper. 

Jill Finlayson: And I think this comes back to leadership. What makes a successful leader who brings that sort of vision? But leaders are also those quote unquote, "high achievers," the people who are going at 100 miles an hour. So how do you advise these high achievers about this idea of stopping? 

Jordan Peace: Oh, man, they're the hardest ones. I mean, it's the hardest people to convert to this way of thinking are the people who are capable of a great deal. Because if they're capable of a great deal and they're motivated, they end up achieving a lot. And in a really outsized way, typically where they see and others see a great chasm between them and the other. Look at all that this. How did they do that? 

40 under 40-- how could they possibly? They're really hard to convince because they not only have obviously believed that achieving is core to mattering. Otherwise, I'm not sure why they would be doing it. They've been after that so hard, and they've received so much validation that, yes, you are doing all the things. And we actually aspire to be you. So those people have a really hard time seeing that, oh, wait, one, I might be already valuable just intrinsically, and so I don't have to achieve and only achieve. Let's put it that way. 

Two, I don't need to do everything in order to achieve. The outcomes need to take place, but it doesn't need to be me all the time. Even though I can get up at 5:00 and read three books a day and run a marathon, I don't have to expend that much energy necessarily on getting it all done because there are other people, and they have skill sets too. And then just getting them to value slowness, to value pausing, breathing, just to find a few moments of non-achievement. And really, I think the only way I've been able to convince people is to bottom line it and go, hey, what's going to happen as a result of the slow thinking is that when you get out of that mode, but you take the gems that you found in there and apply it to your system, your company, your whatever it is, that's going to go better. 

Jill Finlayson: So there's still an ROI. 

Jordan Peace: Yeah, there's still an ROI. So I'm glad people are convinced by that. But that's not the only reason to slow down. There's actually health reasons too. 

Jill Finlayson: A lot of these people, though, feel like they don't have control over their schedule or saying no to create the space for this type of higher-level thinking. They just don't have room in their schedule. So how do you help them create room in their schedule? How do you help them say no to things that maybe aren't leading to the goals that they want to achieve? 

Jordan Peace: Yeah, I mean, there's so much therapy stuff we could get into with that question, but I'm going to just try to keep it lightweight on that. But there's a lot of reasons why we people please. There's a lot of reasons why we say yes to everything. We have different stories that lead us to that place, or we want to be busy. Or there's a lot of reasons why we fill our calendars. But I think one is you have to actually calendarize the time. You have to actually say not when can I find it. But more like, what is the ideal calendar? Have an exercise. 

I mean, I've done this with my wife, several of my friends lately, and for myself, like probably once a quarter. Honestly, I'm a little-- I probably overdo it. But I think, what is it that cannot be removed from my calendar? Just sleep, eating food, transit from this place to that place, these sorts of things. I start there, and then before I think about anything else, I think about what is it that really matters to me. Is it fitness? Is it time with my kids? What is some hobbies that I have? 

But for me, I'm going to make sure that I have time with each of my friends and co-founders every week. I want to make sure I hit the gym a certain amount of times. I want to make sure that I have my dates scheduled with my kids. Going through that exercise is a really big thing that I think is a practically-- if you'll go slow enough to go through an ideal calendar exercise, you will find what's important to you and be able to put those things out there. But to your question about you have to say no to stuff. I think one thing that might be universally encouraging here is everyone wants respect. And people who have boundaries get respect. 

Jill Finlayson: Interesting. OK. 

Jordan Peace: If that's a motivator for people. People respect people that respect themselves. And that's what boundaries are about. It's about saying like, I'm a real person with needs, and I matter. And I'm going to put these lines in the sand and go like, these things are needed to take care of me and check. And now I'm available to serve everyone else. That's great. But those boundaries, actually, they breed respect. And I think it actually is a kindness to the people in your life to have those because then they don't worry. Am I asking too much? Am I demanding too much of their time? They kind of where they stand. And that's actually a really, really useful in a relationship, I think. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, that's what I was going to lead to is you put it on the calendar. You finally make that commitment and then other things encroach upon it. But I think the boundaries conversation helps to mitigate for that. Let's break this down a little bit more. And I like to start out by hearing your interpretation of what stillness is, because that's what you're trying to create time for. What is that, and how do you create that protected space? 

Jordan Peace: Oh, yeah. So for me, I need a physical space that is separate from where I'm doing anything else. So I'm not going to go sit at the kitchen table because that's where we eat. I'm not going to be at my desk because that's where I work. I will go away and sometimes even just in my truck. So I need the I need the physical space that's different. That's just this is my place. 

In this place, I don't look at screens. I don't read things on a list. I don't scroll through anything. I don't have a big agenda. I'm just trying to think about one thing, and that thing for me, it could be-- it might be a work thing, but way more often than not, it is a relationship thing. Am I using my time well right now could be a question I would ask myself. Or how's my daughter? 

I told y'all before we started recording. My daughter just turned 13-- so a great topic that I might sit down and just go, I've got five years left with this kid. What is it that I haven't said or haven't taught or haven't modeled, or what is her worldview? Do I really know? I should have a conversation with her about that. 

And then intentionality-- I'm going to write that down, and then I'm going to actually schedule that time, because otherwise it's a nice thought. That's where there's a little bit of taskiness at the end of this is you got to schedule stuff. And I find that if that's my bar, if I just schedule things, then they're not lost as opposed to just a mental note, which is worthless for me and my working memory. 

Jill Finlayson: It should be at least like one hour once a week. Or what do you see as the frequency or the minimum that you should have if you want to achieve the benefits? 

Jordan Peace: I mean, if we're talking ideal, I would love to see people take a couple of hours on the weekend if possible, a couple of hours and deep dive. Just how am I doing with an hour a week, and that's all you could get during the week. I think that's great. That is 60 more minutes than most people are spending doing this. And that's fantastic. 

And then all I would really add to that is sometimes, if you have a commute or if you have some sort of natural transition time or even a shower, maybe don't listen to the audiobook. Maybe don't turn music on. Maybe don't turn a podcast on ironically. Maybe just be there with your thought. And if that's 10 minutes that you at might feel something or think something slowly, that's pretty good as a daily ritual. 

Jill Finlayson: So you've given some examples of personal prompts. Are there some other prompts that would help to get to that leadership, clarity or prioritization, doing things with greater intention? What are some of the things that you have found helps yourself and maybe helps some of the people that you've worked with? 

Jordan Peace: What typically helps when you're trying to get clarity is limiting yourself-- mental exercises that force you to do less things. So a common question like, if everyone in the company could only do one thing this week, what would that thing be? If everyone in the company could only do two things this week, what? And you would actually think of those like consecutively. There's always a lot of noise. There's always fires to put out. There's always something that's like the flavor of the week in the company, and it's so easy to forget. But what is the actual point? What gets the job done really? And oftentimes, it's gritty stuff like prospecting or reaching out or creating partnerships or these sorts of things-- the human stuff. 

I like to think about what's bothering me. I think that our minds signal us. Even our bodies signal us. You'll see it with people. It's not a video podcast, but I'll show you, Jill. You can see a lot of people touch the back of their head when they feel uncomfortable. And then we're just moving too fast, and so we don't take note of that. But when we slow down and ask the question, what's bothering me right now, it's open-ended enough to let us emotionally wander and find yeah, that felt off. Let's study that one interaction with that coworker or the way my wife sounded in that last conversation with that at that context. I think taking stock of that stuff and what's bothering me, what feels off can tell you a whole lot about what's going on. 

Jill Finlayson: So that really helps you as the leader. Have you tried to employ this for your team? Have you given them time for stillness? How has that helped them to figure out what they should be doing? 

Jordan Peace: Yeah, it's funny. If something is good, you only have to give people a small dose of it and then they want more. So what I did, and because I was trying to ease in, I didn't want to tell the whole company like, hey, listen, like the boss is going to make it mandatory that you do some personal therapy session every day. 

And so I've been easing in by going, hey, we're going to have something called thinking time, and it's going to be an hour a week. And this is just an hour of work. We're going to pay you to do it. And here are the rules. We're going to give you a prompt, maybe two. And you're not allowed to use any screens. No one email anybody. No one Slack anybody. Don't respond. Just shut everything down. Write it on a piece of paper and just write and think for that hour. 

The next step of that, I would think, would be, hey, can we start sharing some of that? What is it that they're learning and figuring it out? It's an opportunity for me to go, man, how long do you think that you've known that? How long do you think that your instincts kind of were saying, I don't know, but then because you took the time, then something actually changed? 

Jill Finlayson: And so for them to be able to both reflect on ways that they could improve processes-- like why are we collecting this data if we're not using this data? Or here's a step that I'm taking that's routine, and I don't know why I'm doing it. Help me understand how that fits. 

Jordan Peace: Yeah, exactly. Or just like, what's something that-- a system that you know is broken, and it's just never been a priority. Or it's just you've never taken the time to fix it or replace it or whatever the case may be. There's so many good prompts from the work setting in that way. So we've only been doing thinking time now for-- we started a couple months ago, maybe 5, 6 thinking times in, and there's already a conversation happening on our internal Slack channel about I need to get off my phone more. 

I got to have my eyes on the world. I'm going to go get that brick machine. And you know what I mean? And it's like they got a dose. And I'm hoping that came from thinking, oh. And I thought that I would have to really slowly bring people along to this concept, but they're already thinking for themselves. That's really good. I need more of that. So it's encouraging. 

Jill Finlayson: What might be the single most important question a professional individual contributor could ask themselves every Friday that would help them rejigger their routine or will help them to bring a lens so that they start the next week off a little better? 

Jordan Peace: I ask myself, what can I do next week? And then I'll review it on Monday morning. But like, what can I do next week that is important and no one else can do it, or no one else will? Either way, either way, it doesn't really matter which it is to be honest. I think it's really just what's important. 

And everybody's got a different job description and limitations of how much authority they have and all that type of stuff. But we have what we have, and within the bounds of that, there are things that are more important and less important and to perpetually seek those things that are most important and then to go deliver on those things. Why do you think people get promoted? People at the top go, yeah, you chose the important thing, and you crushed it. You should probably be in charge of more important things. 

Jill Finlayson: So this is interesting. So as they think about what is the value that they can uniquely bring and enhance the outputs, not just be the outputs but the way they bring the human context to it. And then the question becomes, how do they value themselves personally? And so I do want to transition back to that sort of personal prompt and how you help people use personal reflection to better identify their value that's not just their job. 

Jordan Peace: Now you're into my favorite topic, Jill. Yeah, I think, as I said before, but just to reframe it, I think that there seems to be-- it seems to be the case that human beings less and less see themselves as intrinsically valuable. So that's the core thing that I'm trying to address here. And the reasons for that-- that's a whole podcast by itself. But some of those reasons that maybe are appropriate to discuss are messages that we received as kids, situations that happen to us at any point in life, traumas and things and so forth, where we developed a belief system. 

My buddy Chris calls it our two lines of code. He says, we're all just operating on two lines of code. It's like, what are the core beliefs that actually when you take the time to think objectively, is that true? Or if you ask your friends, is this true of me? It wasn't even that long ago. I said, I just sometimes I feel like people think I'm a joke. He goes, what? No, they don't. 

And I'm like, oh, right. That's not coming from my life. That's coming from the past. I'm still holding on to that. And if you don't see that stuff, if you can't discover and grieve and heal from that stuff, then you're walking around at 40, like me, with a big old imposter syndrome because I don't think I should be invited to the party I'm already at. And that has nothing to do with how I'm presently treated or what my reputation is today. It has to do with a little boy that's still living as the youngest son and the youngest cousin and all that stuff-- my story. 

And everybody has a story. That's why I want people ultimately to stop is to see the full picture and get an appropriate view of themselves that is actually accurate is that they are valued, and they have intrinsic value. And they are flawed. And that's OK. And like, what did they want? Who did they love? How do they now orchestrate their life in such a way to play out what matters according to their worldview? I want that freedom for people to not be imprisoned by thoughts and feelings that don't even come from reality, but from wounds, and be able to live in the freedom of the truth. 

Jill Finlayson: That's a great ambition. Any other final tips on stillness and stopping and finding their intrinsic value? 

Jordan Peace: Yes, last one I would say is if I only got to write one chapter in the limiting question-- if I only got to write one chapter in the book, Stop, it would be stop and forgive. That would be the one chapter, though I think there's going to be 10 chapters, and that'll be one of them. But that's the one I'd pick, because I think so much about the way we operate in life is the emotional autopilot that is being influenced by all of our relationships, and most of our relationships aren't healthy. We think they're healthy. They're often not as healthy as we think they are, and they could be much healthier. And when they are healthier, everything else gets better. 

That's the one thing is like my advice there is stop and think about your relationships. Think about, am I upset with them? Are they upset with me? Have we addressed that? We had that huge argument three weeks ago, and we didn't even reconcile. Stop and forgive. Stop and receive forgiveness. If that's all you ever stop and do, that'd be a huge win. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, thank you so much. It's so great to take a step away. As we think about the Future of Work and this pace of change, how do we think about our value differently, and how do we have that happiness and well-being that comes from knowing our value and taking that time to really reflect, and to your point, recover in some ways from some of the things that we've had in our lives? 

Jordan Peace: Absolutely. Yeah, we all need some rest. 

Jill Finlayson: Thank you so much. And with that, I hope you've enjoyed this latest in a long series of podcasts that we'll be sending your way every month. Please share with friends and colleagues who may be interested in taking this Future of Work journey with us. And make sure to check out extension.berkeley.edu to find a variety of courses and certificates to help you thrive in this new working landscape. And to see what's coming up next at EDGE in Tech, go ahead and visit edge.berkeley.edu. 
Thanks so much for listening, and I'll be back next month to talk about treating your career with an agile mindset. The Future of Work podcast is hosted by Jill Finlayson, produced by Sarah Benzuly, and edited by Matt Dipietro.

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