Working With Intent Across Generations

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Francesca Schuler: We need to be intentional about how we interact with each other, how we listen and learn how we communicate. And those were things we used to just build up over time. We just built those habits because we weren't on our phones and we weren't on Zoom. So we just practiced it every single day. It's an interesting moment of where we have to be intentional at things that seem quite basic, but they're actually fundamental to how we interact both inside and outside of the workplace. 

Jill Finlayson: Welcome to the Future of Work podcast with Berkeley Extension and EDGE in Tech at the University of California, focused on expanding diversity and gender equity in tech. EDGE in Tech is part of the Innovation Hub at CITRIS, the Center for IT Research in the Interest of Society and the Banatao Institute. UC Berkeley Extension is the continuing education arm of the University of California at Berkeley. 

Gen Z enters the workforce with adaptability, creativity, and native digital fluency, shaped by a lifetime of always on social media and instant ai access. But as AI handles the technical tasks, human judgment is becoming the new corporate currency, and traditional unwritten office rules are colliding head-on with the tech first mindset. Success in today's office isn't about forcing conformity, relying on legacy workplace etiquette, or trading when I was your age lectures with text thread emojis. It requires treating this age diversity as a two way street. 

Let's look at how we can explicitly design clear communication norms, practice curious listening, and co-create an environment where every generation actively learns from one another. To discuss this evolving topic, we're excited to welcome Francesca Schuler. Francesca is the executive director of the Dialogue Vanderbilt program, where she works with next generation leaders to alleviate the differences between Gen Z's IQ strengths and gaps in EQ. As a board director and strategic advisor, Francesca supports CEO and leadership teams with growth strategies, recruiting executive talent, and providing leadership coaching. She is also the former CEO of the Nantucket Project, a non-profit organization focusing on promoting civil discourse and pluralism to build a healthier democracy. Welcome. 

Francesca Schuler: Thank you so much, Jill. It's great to be here. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, we're going to jump into this, but I'm excited to that you're fighting for our democracy as well. 

Francesca Schuler: Yes, essential. It is essential for all of us. So-- 

Jill Finlayson: Well, let's talk about how communication plays a really critical role in our democracy, but let's start out by talking about how technology is changing norms. How is it changing or eroding our communication habits? 

Francesca Schuler: What technology has done for us is rather than being very thoughtful in our responses, when we read something or we hear something, we're now being trained to respond with a 280 character post on X, which is really a hot take. That is not a thoughtful, intentional response. So we're not doing our best work putting our point of view out there. And then we no longer have learned how to respond thoughtfully with questions and curiosity. We now just go thumbs up, thumbs down, happy emoji, sad emoji. 

So what that's done is it's really reduced our ability to actually listen and learn from each other. So that's one example that technology has really, I think, deprived us of. The second is it's quite performative. You're tend to look at yourself often or you're looking at others. So it's harder to be authentic, which I think leads to a lack of trust in conversations as well. So we're not building good habits. 

And finally, we're multitasking. I mean, who does not sit in front of their laptop with Slack, text messaging, email, Zoom, all at the same time? And as a result, we're not as intentional in how we're listening. So we just have knee jerk reactions, and we're not as intentional in asking thoughtful questions and getting clarification on what people mean, which is foundational to good communication.

So those are just some of the ways that I think we have lost the habits. And for those of us that are not in younger generations but are on our phones, we are equally guilty of having these bad habits. 

Jill Finlayson: What do you think about the technology is conditioning us to do things badly? 

Francesca Schuler: I think it's speed. That's a huge part of it. I do think multitasking is a lot of it. We're not really engaging in one thing. We're sort of scrolling, swiping, clicking. It's speed and multitasking that's really taken away from what is foundational for good dialogue and good conversation, which is listening, engaging and really thinking about what's the other person saying and what can I learn from them versus am I going to give them a happy emoji or a sad emoji at the end. 

Jill Finlayson: And the other thing is, who's in the workforce has changed, right? I would say the workforce spans at least four or five generations. So it's not just one group of people who have had one experience with technology. What are you seeing? 

Francesca Schuler:: So I think a couple of things have happened. I think, one, we do have Gen Z, millennials, Gen X, and boomers, so multi-generational, each of us showing up with our own communication style and method of communication. I think for the older generations, we have certain assumptions of how it's supposed to be, referencing days before we had 17 channels of communication. 

For younger generations is they're used to going back and forth with everything. So there's no thought on, OK, should I text my boss and say bruh as the opening thing, which, by the way, has happened to me as a CEO. And so maybe I should say at least Francesco or Mrs. Schuller or something, but bruh, probably not the opener. But because you're so used to it and you're moving so quickly, we are not as intentional when we're switching between forms of communication and who we're communicating with. And I think that really impacts the workplace, because each of us are coming in with a different set of expectations and a different set of habits. There's no more norms. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, we talk about the norms changing. Gen X seems to get a pretty bad rep. There's a lot of memes out there. There's even a lot of, I would say, Instagrams trying to translate between generations. Why do you think Gen Z is getting the bad rep? 

Francesca Schuler: Well, I think the younger generation always gets the bad rap from the older generation. It's, oh, these young people, they don't understand how we should do it, how it should be done. I actually think we each own that. I think every generation owns that. We can't take for granted we understand how each other wants to communicate, both in terms of style as well as medium. 

It actually starts with the managers and even more senior people in the workplace. Are you role modeling what you expect? Are you transparent and communicating clearly how you want to be communicated with? And it's OK to set the norms. If it's your office and you want to set the norms, that's great. But actually make sure you share it with people and explain the why. 

So I actually think it starts with the management to be intentional and clear and transparent and also role model what you want. I laugh when everyone's like, oh, everyone's on their phone. I'm like, I was just in a meeting with half of you, and every single one of you was on your phone. So let's be careful that we're role modeling what we expect. 

But equally, I think young people entering the workplace, they also assume a certain amount of things like, oh, everyone's going to want to get my Slack and my text and my email versus asking the question. How can I communicate most effectively with you? What are your expectations? So it is a two way street. I think it's on the more senior teams to role model good behaviors and be transparent about expectations. 

But it's also on the responsibility of everyone entering the workforce to ask those questions. The most important thing is really being intentional, thinking about your communication habits, both in terms of how you interact, like shaking hands, eye contact, and then most of all, like, what language choices that you make. And now we actually really have to think about those and practice the ones that we want to be our behaviors and make sure those are aligned with the norms in the workplace. 

Jill Finlayson: Do you find the norms are different depending on the channel of communication that you're using? 

Francesca Schuler: I mean, texting tends to be shorthand. Things like Slack tend to be shorthand-- you know, no punctuation, very, very informal. And all of a sudden, that starts bleeding into how you do emails because you're like, oh, yeah, I do this all the time, not, realizing oh, I'm actually drafting an email to a client or a customer. I probably should use a different approach than I do on some of my other communication. 

Jill Finlayson: So you talked about practice. What are we practicing? 

Francesca Schuler: We're practicing listening, active listening. Do you really hear what the request is, number 1. and do you understand it? And if you don't, asking questions. Are you assuming good intent? 

One of the biggest things I see in the workplace is these crazy assumptions around you send an email to a younger person and say, hey, can I see you in my office. They somehow think they're getting fired. And you're like, no, no, I literally just said, can you see me in my office? 

And so assuming goodwill when people communicate, I think that's one of the other things we're practicing. I think because of the polarization and the headlines and everything is, like, assuming everyone's evil. We have to get back to assuming goodwill and just saying, oh, well, this person, must be their style, or they must not understand my style. So that's the second thing. 

I think curiosity is another thing that we're definitely practicing. So don't take things as face value, but actually probe and learn more. That's something that we've lost sight of as we're, again, in these short soundbites. And for me, these go together is appreciation of nuance and a move away from this certainty. Right now, everyone is just so certain on everything. So everyone shows up certain on everything. 

There's almost no issue that's black and white in the world and definitely in the workplaces. There's so much nuance. And so I think the habit and what we're really practicing is understanding the nuance and being able to navigate and work together in nuance. So those are some of the things that I think we're practicing. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, one of the phrases I've heard is, are you listening, or are you waiting to speak? 

Francesca Schuler: Or waiting to win is another one we use. Are you listening to win, or are you listening to learn and understand? 

Jill Finlayson: So why do you think we've lost nuance? 

Francesca Schuler: A couple things. I think it goes back to, one, just sort of unfortunately, the culture that we're in now, just the headlines, social media, whatever. Any headline you've seen, what is being rewarded in terms of clicks through is very certain, very aggressive, very bold statements, whether they're true or not, I think the nature of what's being rewarded in sharing of information to be more certain. So I think that's part of it. I think we're also just losing the ability to use evidence and probe a little further. 

One of the best things at Vanderbilt is inside the classroom, outside the classroom, critical thinking, using evidence is something we practice over and over again with our students because if you just assume-- as I say, if you're quoting your friend on TikTok, going into an argument on a hot topic, it is not going to go well. Guarantee. But if you use some evidence, even if the other person doesn't agree, at least you're having a rational conversation on facts versus emotion. 

Jill Finlayson: That's why I like your suggestion for clarifying questions because it does a couple of things, right? It slows the roll. It slows you down a little bit Because now you're saying, let me be sure I heard you correctly. But it's also getting more information. It's getting more evidence and getting more clarity about what's really being asked. 

Francesca Schuler: And at the end, there's also humility. In the end, none of us everything. And so showing up with some humility, I think, opens the door to nuance and actually opens the door to learning, which in the end drives more impact. So if you can show up with like, hey, I may, I'm open to have my mind changed, I'm going to ask some questions to listen and learn-- I'm going to assume this person has a reason for their point of view That's different from mine. And actually, if we can combine forces, 2 plus 2 can equal 5. That sets up a very different conversation than I'm right. No, no, I'm right. And off you go. 

Jill Finlayson: We're entering an era also where you can get answers very quickly. There's been a great democratizing of access to information. So when you look at developing judgment, when you look at making good decisions, people have access to a lot of information straight away. And judgment isn't something you can just look up. It's not something you can ask ChatGPT or Gemini. It's a product of learning. 

Somebody who's older might say, well, it's a product of tenure. It's a product of paying your dues. That's how you get good judgment. But a younger person might argue it's about who's navigating data really well, who's getting good information, who's able to distill that information. That's good judgment. So I'm curious. How would you define judgment in the workplace? 

Francesca Schuler: I think the key there is in the workplace. So one of the things that I think often gets missed in the workplace is ensuring that everyone in the organization understands what the drivers of success are for the organization, whatever it is, whatever you're trying to do. If you're a school trying to educate students, a biology lab trying to do research, or a financial institution trying to deliver shareholder value, there are drivers of success and making sure that everyone in the organization understands how their role impacts the drivers of success. 

And that is something that often gets missed. Either people just assume it, they don't think you need to it, et cetera. And so if you're not clear on one, how do we win. Or how are we success-- how are we measuring that too? How do I impact that? 

Then judgment becomes somewhat arbitrary in the workplace, being very transparent about the drivers and making sure everyone understands their role from the most junior person to the most senior person. That's how you develop judgment, because then you can ask the question, is this impacting one of the positive drivers of the organization? That's number one, I think, that I think about a lot. 

Two is having a consumer or customer focus, whoever your consumer of your customer is. Spent a lot of years in marketing. So I had to listen to a lot of people say, oh, I like this, I don't like this. And I would many, many times, I'd say, but you are not the customer. So I appreciate your point of view, but your judgment, you're using yourself as the audience. But actually, we're targeting teen girls, and you're a middle-aged dude. 

So I think keeping a consumer and customer mindset, whoever you're serving, is another way to develop judgment in the workplace because then all of a sudden, you're like, what does the customer need, what problem am I solving, versus what do I think is best. So I think those are two big sort of context setting and skill building that I think everyone needs to build in the organization so that they can show up with good judgment. Then to your point, I think everyone can contribute. 

You have different skill sets. So I think it's practice. It's experience. It's actually collaboration, working with others and hearing their points of view, and realizing that, wow, I wasn't right on this. And actually, that person was. And we put these two things together, and we have a better result. That's just practice. And so I think that also helps you serve or develop strong judgment. 

And then finally, common sense is part of it. So those are the things that I think could really help some of the conflicts that we see in the workplace, making sure that people are clear on what's the organization going to do. How do I impact that? What's the customer, the consumer saying? What am I solving for them? That's how you develop judgment. And then you obviously build expertise in whatever function you're serving and doing your job well. 

Jill Finlayson: When you're talking to New employees and when you're talking to seasoned leaders, what do you find is the most common mistake that they're both making? 

Francesca Schuler: One is I think the senior leaders are projecting how they did things onto a generation that's very different in a time that's very different. So I see that a lot, and you hear the proverbial, well, back in my day. Whether you hear those words directly, explicitly or implicitly, they come up a lot. So I think that's a mistake that can cause friction because you have to remember there's a totally different context. 

I think for younger people, there is definitely the democratization of things. Like, access to senior people via things like LinkedIn has removed, I think, some understanding of the benefit of experience. So I mean, look. We all show up without a ton of humility when we get out of college, and we think, I'm so smart. I know how to do this. I graduated from XYZ. I'm ready to go. Let's go. 

So that's normal, I think, in your early 20s. But I think there's been an increase in young people not realizing that there is benefit for experience. People have made a lot of mistakes, and you can learn from that. So that's one of the mistakes I see often. They're like, well, how to do this. And you're like, OK, based on what? Well, I asked ChatGPT, or I just figured it out on my own. This must be right. 

And you're like, OK, well, here's 60 things that you did not think about when you provided that point of view. So those are probably the two things in terms of that I see often cause-- that doesn't set a shared context. And then if you don't have a shared context, then all the other little things start to become friction points. 

Jill Finlayson: Yeah, for that younger person, what do you recommend they use as a prompt to have a conversation with somebody senior to get that wisdom? 

Francesca Schuler: I don't think there's one magic prompt. I think there's many. But you definitely don't want to ask, tell me exactly how to do this because that's your job, not their job. I think I often ask, and I ask this people that when I'm in a new environment, what are some of the common mistakes that I could avoid? Because I'm going to make mistakes, and I acknowledge that. 

But if you have some suggestions on things where you made mistakes that I can make sure to avoid those, that's a great way to open a conversation. If you can ask people that are more senior than you, say, OK, what were the three mistakes you made, it does a couple of things. I think one is it shows humility, which I think is, really, that changes the conversation. I think two, you actually legitimately get some great things to avoid, which is so helpful because you're like, OK, you don't have to do that. I'll make some new mistakes. 

But three, it sets up a learning environment from each other. So think that's one of the questions I find that I still use when I move into new roles or change industries. I ask that question all the time because I find it a really helpful way to open a dialogue, to avoid mistakes, and to set up a way to learn. And then also, it opens a door for a senior person to not pontificate on all the things they did well, which could cause a set of issues, but just say, OK, when I was in your shoes, I did these two things. They were like Epic Failures. Just avoid those. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, my boss is a human too. That's one of my go-tos. 

Jill Finlayson: And similarly for the executive, how do they kind of unleash ideation and potential from younger people? 

Francesca Schuler: Make sure the young person understands how they can impact the business and sort of what you're looking for. And again, not too prescriptive, but say you're working. Your job is to support the sales team. The sales team drives revenue. This is-- you know how revenue matters? This is how you can help support them be successful. 

That's a high level example, but help them understand where they fit in. I think be patient with crazy ideas. Just say give me your best three ideas. And instead of dismissing them or saying, yeah, that's not right or not enough experience, explain the why those aren't good ideas. Take time to explain the why. 

And I think push for facts. Push for evidence on why they're making the recommendation because I think if you don't help young people show up and effectively share their point of view, if you're just like, that's a bad idea, you're not really helping them develop. If you say to them, give me some ideas and explain to me how you got there, how is that helping the customer, how is that helping the company, and they may have some reasons that are misguided, it's a great moment to coach them. So I think making sure you always encourage, don't just give me an idea, but explain why you think this could be helpful. Again, sets up a great coaching environment. 

Jill Finlayson: So let's take a scenario where somebody is new to the work. They're used to universities. They're used to getting a checklist. Like, here are the five things in the syllabus. Here are your deliverables. They get to the job. They're not given the checklist. The boss doesn't want to spend their whole day explaining them to do the work because they could do the work in that amount of time. That's a classic conflict. What would you advise in that situation? 

Francesca Schuler: This happens. This is one of the things I see increasingly in the workplace that was a surprising trend that I don't think existed as much 10 or 15 years ago. And I think it's driven by the formula it takes to get into great colleges, et cetera. There's much more of a playbook approach, I think, now to education than there used to be. 

So I think one, saying that out loud, just saying you are now in the workplace. And so there is no more checklist. But I think setting that expectation really clearly that says there's no longer a checklist, here's your job description, but what we're really looking for, particularly for young people in their first, second, or third job is, can you show initiative? Can you solve problems? Can you ask questions? 

Do you show curiosity? Can you work well with others? Do you ask for help? If you don't and then they come a year later and wonder why they're not promoted and where's the checklist, that's like 12 months too late to have that conversation. And so I think the more you can spend upfront kind of explaining the world of work a little bit-- as crazy as it sounds, if you've been in the workplace for 40 or years or 20 years, my best managers helped me understand that, and my worst managers didn't do it. So I think setting context on those dimensions is really important. 

Jill Finlayson: Coming out of University, your IQ is very high. Your knowledge of new technology, your willingness to adapt and adopt new technology, is very high. But you say that isn't enough to keep them in the job. How does EQ come into play? 

Francesca Schuler: So EQ is really all the skills that actually make you successful because there's many people that can have subject matter expertise. But the things that make you successful in a role is how you interact with others. Can you work with others to get something done? There's almost no role in any industry, in any function, where you don't need others to work with you. So EQ is about, one, how do you work with others? Can you collaborate? Can you bring out the best in them? I think the second thing in EQ is the ability to collaborate and be uncomfortable when things feel uncomfortable and get through that for a better solution. 

Have the courage to have a point of view and the courage to also that you're wrong. So I think that's an EQ skill. And that takes practice because all of us want to be right, and all of us hate getting bad feedback. And all of us-- it's hard. And so I think practicing that is another EQ skill that's really important. I think also the ability to be flexible, to read a room, as they say, to sit in an environment and understand what's really happening-- you know, am I engaging? Is it operating? 

I think as a young person, the best opportunities you can have, the more you can be in the office-- and yes, I am an in the office perso-- and sit-in a room with others and watch. Watch how they do things. Watch how they interact. Watch how they present. Watch how they ask questions. That's, again, how you create a great culture and a team that can get things done together. And so those are some of the EQ skills that I think are essential because if you can't work with others, if you can't appreciate diverse points of view, it's like you're only as good as yourself. And if you can't get your job done without others, then it's like, game over. 

Jill Finlayson: Well, emotional intelligence, I believe, is a learned skill. It's not something that we all inherently have. And I've also seen many senior execs are lacking in emotional intelligence. How do you bring this into your senior leadership coaching? 

Francesca Schuler: Great question. And so a couple of things-- I think one is you spend a lot of time thinking about what behaviors are you looking for throughout your organization because often, it's the leaders with the lower EQ that are the most frustrated with everybody around them, because they haven't necessarily taken the time to think about why is this happening. They're just, like, annoyed that it's happening. 

And so spending time saying, what are the behaviors you're looking for? Have you articulated those clearly? How have you articulated clearly to your team, and do they understand them? Do you know what I mean? Because it's easy to say I want you to be a problem solver. Well, that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. 

And so some people want to solve problems in collaborative environments. Some people want people to go off and solve problems and come back in. And so I think that's one. So being clear about the behaviors and being transparent with the organization, like this is how I want us to work, how does that work? 

I think two, making sure you understand your self-awareness of your own style. So I often coach leaders like, let's go through what your style is. So if you're someone, for example, that you like to hear a problem and want to go into a room and kind of noodle it before you bring your point of view to others and you have someone on the team that is like a free form someone who likes to brainstorm all the time-- I'm a complete verbal processor. I do it all the time. 

And I had a boss tell me once. He was like, OK, I never know hwat Francesca I'm getting. Am I going to get the one with the idea done, or am I going to get 15 ideas and you're still brainstorming? He's like, I need to process. Bring me something to think about, and then let's talk about it the next day, because I'm just it's not my style to freeform brainstorm, which was some of the most helpful feedback I've ever gotten in my career because it really made me self-aware of I need to understand how the other person works so that I can be the most effective. 

And often, leaders with lower EQ don't take the time to figure that out, and they just think it's everybody else's fault. And so spend a lot of time thinking like, do you your own style? Do you share it transparently? I'm now very transparent. I'm like, I'm a complete verbal processor. I brainstorm really openly. I love to brainstorm with people. But that can drive you crazy if you're someone who wants to go off and think about it before giving a point of view. So let's have that conversation and figure out how we work together. 

Jill Finlayson: Let's look at another example of where things cause go wrong, and there's friction. So say you have a meeting. The boss is asking for feedback and ideas, and a young person is like, do I tell them what I really think? I don't agree with them. I have a different point of view. What are the unwritten rules? Do I do it in the meeting? Do I go behind? Is that not the appropriate place? I think there's a lot of things here that especially if you're new to the workplace, you're like maybe erring on the side of caution, or if you don't, you end up getting burned because you didn't understand the norms. 

Francesca Schuler: Great question. I don't think there is one answer for that, to be honest. I don't think there is one answer because I think different organizations work differently. So I think it's understanding your culture. What I will say is, rather than saying I disagree with you or I think you're wrong, which is never a good opener, is to frame it in terms of, hey, like, we're trying to solve this problem from the customer lens. I don't think this will solve the problem because this may be another friction point, but always try to use the customer lens. 

That's one of the things I've always coached my teams on and I learned is if you frame it in terms of the customer, one, you can then disagree, and it's not personal. You're saying, hey, I think the customer journey is this, or the customer experience is this. I'm not sure that's going to solve that problem or meet we think we're needing. Then all of a sudden, it's, OK, what's the best for the customer versus hey, senior person. I think that's a dumb idea. 

And so the more you can use language like that and frame it as what you're trying to solve and is it solving the problem versus I disagree with you, I think that's just generally a good best practice. In the workplace, you do have a goal, whatever your constituency is. You're in a school and teaching students, take the student perspective. If you're in a hospital, take the patient perspective. 

And so using that as a way to frame what may be a different point of view can be really helpful. It's honestly also a great way to check yourself because I have come in and be like, oh my God, that's the dumbest idea ever in my head. And then I think about it, and then I'm like, OK, actually, totally, this will totally work for the customer or the patient or whatever. 

And so it does two things. It forces you to slow down. Have you really thought about this? And two, it makes a disagreement, not personal. It makes we're in here together. We're trying to solve a problem for the constituents that we serve, and we have different points of view how to get there. Let's have that discussion versus Francesca said this and Joe said this. 

Jill Finlayson: How do you feel about hierarchy and how has hierarchy changed? 

Francesca Schuler: I think hierarchy is about how to make sure that you lean into experience because you need it, and how do you put in place effective decision making rules that allow enough room for innovation and new ideas. But also, you have people who can make the call and make the call swiftly and effectively so that you can move things forward. I think that's how I think about hierarchy. It's clarity about decision making and embracing the power of experience while still leaving a lot of room for collaboration and innovation. That's how you should think about hierarchy. 

Jill Finlayson: You mentioned being in offices. You're a fan of being in the office. How do we go beyond individual skill development and individual emotional intelligence to building more people skills and people together? 

Francesca Schuler: It goes back to the same thing around communication skills. You have to be intentional about spending time with people. And you can't script every moment of it. The value of just sitting in a room and getting to know someone or-- depending what you do. I worked in mostly multi-unit businesses. So I would take anyone and be like, let's go walk the store, let's go walk the club, go talk to customers. 

Those were some of the most productive things that I did, and that was not like a scheduled meeting. And so I think it's being intentional about spending time with people. I think for young people, it's don't be afraid to invite somebody to lunch or ask their point of view or say, can I have coffee that's totally not in your department. Get to know them. Be like, hey, I'd love to learn. Everyone likes to talk about themselves. 

No one's going to be like, no, I'm not going to tell you my story. So just be like, hey, I'm new. I'd love to learn. Tell me about your career path. Tell me about mistakes that you made. What do you think I could do better? How do you think about this problem? But I think what has changed is work has gotten more and more intense, and every minute of every day is booked. And we now have to, just the same way, we have to work on our human communication habits, we have to work on intentional time with each other in the workplace, with your customer to understand them, and whatever other partners you have. That is as important as your status meeting you're having with somebody. 

Jill Finlayson: What's the benefit of meeting people outside of your immediate unit? 

Francesca Schuler: I think they have a different perspective often on what your function does, which is often helpful because one of the biggest mistakes I made earlier in my career. I assumed everyone understood what marketing was like. Of course. I'm in marketing. Everyone knows what marketing is. Like, everybody knows what I do all day long. 

And after a bunch of meetings where they didn't go so well, et cetera, I realized there's definitely a perception of marketing was just spending a lot of money and drawing pretty pictures all day long. And I was like, OK, we need to almost do a road show. Like, this is what marketing is about. 

The benefit of spending time outside your function is one, you may discover a function. You're like, I want to do this. I never thought about it. This is cool. Two, you realize you go in assuming everyone knows what you do all day long, and that is not the case 90% of the time. And so spending time, you can see, like, what's the perception and be like, oh, this is a great opportunity to educate. It's a great opportunity to learn. And that creates collaboration. 

Jill Finlayson: You've brought up a subject called idea safaris. What are they and how are they not just forced fun? 

Francesca Schuler: So idea safaris, did this in almost every organization that I've worked in. And the idea was let's go out and get some inspiration. This goes back again to spending time with people. And I think one of the best places to get inspiration is outside of your own industry. What's someone doing in an industry that's not related to you, but you could learn from? So for example, I was in the health and fitness business and we would go to our hotels and other hospitality environments and be like, how do they welcome people? What are the little touches they do that make people feel special, et cetera. 

So it forces-- we all get in our own silos. We get your functional silo, your industry silo. And so idea safaris were a great way to go out and get ideas. It's a great way to spend time as a team. And often you'd be like, oh my God, they're doing that. What if I just apply that in my industry? And that would be, like, breakthrough. So there's not that many brand new ideas. It's how you apply them. So I think we use them very much for innovation, for team building, and for thinking outside of our own lanes. 

Jill Finlayson: How do you deal with people who feel like that's just architected? It's forced. It's not authentic. 

Francesca Schuler: I think sometimes, people feel because it's work, it has to be over-scripted. And actually innovation is never overscripted ever, and nor is collaboration. And so you have to be comfortable with an organic process and sort of let it go I guess is the best way I can describe it. Just enjoy the process. And if you go out and do it for half a day and no new ideas come up, that's OK. It still put people in a different environment where they're thinking outside the box. And you spent time with them in a very different way. So just that alone will add value. 

Jill Finlayson: As we think about these communication styles and being more transparent or more clear on what the expectations are, how have you seen people better communicate given the context is so important, and a lot of times, these asynchronous methods-- Slack, email, text-- doesn't come with a larger context? 

Francesca Schuler: So as I say, pick up the phone, which I know is bad language to the Gen Z. But I think if an email goes back and forth two or three times on some topic, you either have to have a meeting or pick up the phone and talk to them because by email number five, particularly if you have a lot of people on it, that's not productive and you're not going to get there. So that's just some simple rules of thumb like that. 

But we're spending time with our students at Vanderbilt giving them opportunities to practice. It's really how do you practice these habits in different environments on different topics and different settings, et cetera. I find ways to do that in your office, with your teams, et cetera is a big part of it. Try not to do everything over email and text and Slack because you really don't understand context. 

Jill Finlayson: How do these best practices in communication translate to promoting a healthier democracy? 

Francesca Schuler: Well, if we can, one, assume goodwill about each other, take the time to listen and learn from each other, and realize that everyone's point of view is worth at least listening, use evidence when we make our own points of view, and agree that we're not going to always agree, but if we can align to move forward, I mean, those are the key principles of civil discourse. It's respect. It's judgment. It's evidence. It's showing up with humility. 

It's called civil discourse for a reason, and it's fundamental to democracy. So I think the habits are essential at the end for us to realize that we actually aren't nearly as far apart as we are. I think I watched-- I don't know if you watched when the US Men's soccer team beat their last game, beat Australia, and Seattle broke into song singing "Country Road." And you look at that, and I was at a concert over the weekend, and you see people enjoying these moments together and share all sorts of political, religious, et cetera background. 

I think what good and healthy civil discourse, these constructive dialogue habits, do is it reminds us that we are all actually trying to move things forward, and we just need to take the time to understand each other better and also be willing to compromise and kind of move things forward. So I think it's foundational to democracy, and we've lost the ability to do that. We're assuming the other person is evil. We're assuming there is no nuance. We're assuming the world is black and white, and if we can move away from that, that's essential, I think, to finding productive solutions for making all of our lives better in a democracy. 

Jill Finlayson: So what are your final words of advice for aligning on a shared vision in the workplace when it is so multi-generational? 

Francesca Schuler: I think to the older generation, I would say be a role model of what you want and-- be transparent about what you want and be a role model of it. Don't expect it and assume people understand it, and also, make sure you're practicing what you preach. So I think that's one. So walk the talk. 

I think for young people, it's come in and be like, I am here to learn, ask questions, and soak in as much as you can from everyone you interact with. Have a point of view but rooted in facts and the consumer, as I said earlier. And then I think most of all, kind of assume goodwill and assume that everyone is there to try and deliver whatever your organization's goals are. 

And if there's misalignment, it's almost always because people's incentives aren't clear, or they are not aligned on goals. So just pause and say, is everyone clear what we're here to do? And if not, take the time to get yourselves aligned. Everyone owns that. That is not the manager's job or the new person's job or the CEO's job. We all own that because in the little interactions and the big interactions, if you're not clear on what you're here to do, it's not going to work. 

Jill Finlayson: Like the curious listening because I think it also brings down the temperature in the room. It's no longer that black and white. It's a much more tell me where you're coming from and how you got there perspective. So I really enjoy that element of being able to be curious but authentically curious. 

Francesca Schuler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely ask what the why is and share your why, I think, is really important. 

Jill Finlayson: Share your why. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Francesca Schuler: Thank you, Jill. It's great to be here. Appreciate it. 

Jill Finlayson: And with that, I hope you enjoyed this latest in a long series of podcasts that we'll be sending your way every month. Please share with friends and colleagues who may be interested in taking this Future of Work journey with us. And make sure to check out to find a variety of courses and certificates to help you thrive in this new working landscape. And to see what's coming up at EDGE in Tech, go ahead and visit edge@berkeley.edu Thanks so much for listening, and I'll be back next month to continue our future of Work journey. The Future of Work podcast is hosted by Jill Finlayson, produced by Sarah Benzuly, and edited by Matt Dipietro.

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